[Charles Booth]

Am upgrading one of our residential customers from an old system that
contained a switch, when thrown to off, would remove voltage from all
the old ultrasonic motion detectors and the keypads, thereby
eliminating lighted leds and clicking relays -- thus satisfying their
requirement for Shabbat.

Any suggestions from any of you as to how to accomplish a similar
mission for a 16-zone NX8E system? How do I handle the blinking LEDS
in the smoke detectors and the power light on the Macurco carbon
monoxide detectors?

Many thanks.

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Black electrical tape?

Interesting problem. This was discussed here a few weeks ago, dunno if any of the threads are still around.

Robert Bass (poster herein) apparently had had some experience with Shabbat alarm control.

 

[julian]

Am upgrading one of our residential customers from an old system that
contained a switch, when thrown to off, would remove voltage from all
the old ultrasonic motion detectors and the keypads, thereby
eliminating lighted leds and clicking relays -- thus satisfying their
requirement for Shabbat.

Any suggestions from any of you as to how to accomplish a similar
mission for a 16-zone NX8E system? How do I handle the blinking LEDS
in the smoke detectors and the power light on the Macurco carbon
monoxide detectors?

Many thanks.

Upgrade the Panel to a Paradox Digiplex. It has a built-in Shabbat
feature that is supposed to satisfy the requirements.

Julian

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Am upgrading one of our residential customers

from an old system that contained a switch,
when thrown to off, would remove voltage from
all the old ultrasonic motion detectors and the
keypads, thereby eliminating lighted leds and
clicking relays -- thus satisfying their requirement
for Shabbat.

Any suggestions from any of you as to how to
accomplish a similar mission for a 16-zone
NX8E system?

You can do the exact same thing. Just be sure to disarm before throwing the
switch.

How do I handle the blinking LEDS
in the smoke detectors and the power
light on the Macurco carbon
monoxide detectors?

It is niether necessary nor advisable to do that. Blinking LEDs, in and of
themselves, are not a violation of Jewish law. You only need to eliminate
LEDs and other things which are controlled by the activities of the family
during Shabbat. For example, you can leave a light on in the kitchen during
Yom Tov, but you cannot have the refridgerator light come on when the door
opens.

For a more detailed discussion of the needs of Orthodox Jews and ways to
make an automation or security system compliant with their religious
regulations, click this link http://tinyurl.com/b7nyu which takes you to a
Google search of my earlier posts on this subject.

If you need help designing a system for an Orthodox family or synagogue,
feel free to contact me.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Mark Leuck]

Black electrical tape?

Interesting problem. This was discussed here a few weeks ago, dunno if any
of the threads are still around.

I can't help but wonder if they also turn off things like the fridge or hot
water heater?

Stupid religion if you ask me

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Dunno much about it...sounds like if they can't see it operating then it's ok ?

 

[Mark Leuck]

So hell stick a cloth over the keypad

Dunno much about it...sounds like if they can't see it operating then it's
ok ?

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Interesting discussion. If they started a fire by

accident, and it activated a smoke detector,
would they have in essence activated technology
during Sabbath?...

Accidentally doing something without the intent of performing "work" during
Shabos is not a violation. Also, it is acceptable to violate Shabos rules
to save a life so they can even make a phone call to 911 or whatever if the
house is on fire.

It appears that you need a timer to automatically
shunt out all zones and then unshunt them...

Not all zones; only those with motion or glass break detectors in them plus
the "shabos door". That's the one door that is left unprotected so the
family can go to synagogue and return.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

So hell stick a cloth over the keypad

You mean Robert should start selling Shabbat cloths for keypads?? Excellent
idea... Offer designer colours... I understand he can get woven mats real
cheap in Brazil...

 

[Robert L. Bass]

I can't help but wonder if they also turn

off things like the fridge or hot water heater?

Nope. Only the light is unscrewed. The reason, as it was explained to me,
is that the refridgerator compressor turns on and off based on a temperature
change which is not *directly* coupled to opening the door. The lamp is
directly coupled by the little push-button switch in the door hinge area.

Stupid religion if you ask me.

They probably think the same thing about you. The difference is they're
right.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

So hell stick a cloth over the keypad

That doesn't make it compliant.

 

[Paul]

You can easlily disable the Leds usually by a jumper in each detector. Or
you can switch the power to detectors using a relay connected and programmed
to activate to folllow the Armed Light. Extend the exit delay to allow for a
warm up period when you arm the system and you've done it. There are
probably a lot of good reasons NOT to do this though, but it is an easy fix.

Paul

Dunno much about it...sounds like if they can't see it operating then it's
ok ?

 

[Crash Gordon®]

pragmatically speaking,,,I was just wondering is simply blocking the view (like with a opaque keypad or device "Shabbat Alarm Hood" [patent pending]) would be acceptable?

 

[Robert L. Bass]

You can easlily disable the Leds...

It's not just the LEDs though. Their activity (walking about the house for
example) cannot cause a change in an electrical device. Note that this
varies somewhat as not all Orthodox sects have the same standards. Even
within a given group there is variation from one family to the next. It's
the same with any religion. Each person's understanding differs somewhat
from the next person.

usually by a jumper in each detector. Or you can switch the power to
detectors
using a relay connected and programmed to activate to folllow the Armed
Light.

That method doesn't comply unless the system is left disarmed for the entire
Shabos or Yom Tov. There are other ways to do it using the built-in timers
and scheduling of an advanced system like the Napco Gemini. With lesser
systems like Caddx you can still do it but you may need an add-on timer to
go fully automatic.

Extend the exit delay to allow for a warm
up period when you arm the system and'
you've done it...

Note that an Orthodox family cannot operate the alarm keypads at all during
Shabos and certain Yom Tov. My method allows the system to arm and disarm
itself yet still allow egress for scheduled visits to synagogue. Since
these times are fixed it's possible to make the system do exactly what is
needed and still provide at least a minimum level of protection. No system
is ideal for every family but the methods I developed have proved suitable
for several strict Orthodox groups (Hasidim, Young Israel, etc.) .

There are probably a lot of good reasons
NOT to do this though, but it is an easy fix.

From a security installer's viewpoint it's a difficult concept. You have a
client who wants protection but his faith requires that he not use most of
the system during certain important times. If the alternative is not to
provide any protection at all then this is a reasonable alternative.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

pragmatically speaking,,,I was just wondering

is simply blocking the view (like with a opaque
keypad or device "Shabbat Alarm Hood"
[patent pending]) would be acceptable?

In most cases, no.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Crash Gordon®]

So their religious practices make life in the modern world kinda difficult, I would imagine.

The light in the refrigerator is a no-no, but the refrigerator actually running is ok? I'm totally confusted

pragmatically speaking,,,I was just wondering
is simply blocking the view (like with a opaque
keypad or device "Shabbat Alarm Hood"
[patent pending]) would be acceptable?

In most cases, no.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

So their religious practices make life

in the modern world kinda difficult,
I would imagine.

It complicates things somewhat but that's part of the price of faith.

The light in the refrigerator is a no-no,
but the refrigerator actually running is
ok? I'm totally confusted

It isn't the fact that something is running that's at issue. The religious
code forbids them from initiating or terminating "fire" which has been
interpreted by religious leaders to include turning electrical circuits on
or off. Opening the door turns on the light so that's not permitted.
Walking past a PIR breaks the circuit (zone loop), throws a relay and
triggers an LED -- all forbidden.

The refrigerator compressor runs by itself. It is not "controlled" by
opening the door so it's OK to open the door. I once asked about the fact
that opening the door causes the temperature to change which in turn causes
the compressor to run. He explained that because there's not a direct link
it's OK. There's an awful lot more to it than this but that's the best I
can explain it.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Frank Olson]

It complicates things somewhat but that's part of the price of faith.


It isn't the fact that something is running that's at issue. The
religious code forbids them from initiating or terminating "fire" which
has been interpreted by religious leaders to include turning electrical
circuits on or off. Opening the door turns on the light so that's not
permitted. Walking past a PIR breaks the circuit (zone loop), throws a
relay and triggers an LED -- all forbidden.

The refrigerator compressor runs by itself. It is not "controlled" by
opening the door so it's OK to open the door. I once asked about the fact
that opening the door causes the temperature to change which in turn
causes the compressor to run. He explained that because there's not a
direct link it's OK. There's an awful lot more to it than this but that's
the best I can explain it.

So if you were somehow able to turn the refridgerator light "on" *before*
they opened the door they'd be OK with that?? What about turning on lights
*before* they enter a room and turning them off shortly after they leave
it?? Would simply walking around in your house activating various different
types of unobtrusive sensors that would restore a degree of "normal living"
be considered "forbidden"?? If an interpretation of His "instructions"
include having to fumble around in the dark and risk "taking His name in
vain" when I stubb my toe or bang my knee, I'd seriously consider initiating
some "alternative measures"... )

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Sounds like schedules would be acceptable but any tripping of devices by them walking would not be.

Too much for my brain.

 

[mikey]

Too much for any normal brain. Religious zealots are the curse of society:
Fanatics who fly planes in to buildings, let children die without blood
transfusions, disfiguring surgery, the list goes on. Pick a war, any war, I
bet it had something to do with a religion or religious beliefs... fucking
hypocrites.

Sounds like schedules would be acceptable but any tripping of devices by
them walking would not be.

Too much for my brain.