Quotation of the day

[Eeyore]

But every thing they buy means someone else can't have it.

Nonsence. It means that more of it gets made adding further jobs and more wealth.

Graham

 

[Jim Thompson]

Building a 28,000 square foot house benefits John Edwards. Building
twenty-eight 1000 square foot houses would benefit 28 families. JE
keeps harping on the gap between the haves and the have-nots.

John

When is the discharge of 93 US Attorneys immaterial?

When is the discharge of 9 US Attorneys extreme abuse of Presidential
Powers?

Guess ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[John Larkin]

Which is what happens when the John Edwards of the country can't build their
houses.

Building a 28,000 square foot house benefits John Edwards. Building
twenty-eight 1000 square foot houses would benefit 28 families. JE
keeps harping on the gap between the haves and the have-nots.

John

 

[John Larkin]

Nonsence. It means that more of it gets made adding further jobs and more wealth.

Graham

Wrong. You can't distribute more than you create, no matter how much
green paper is available. Whenever, say, a union negotiates higher
wages for the same work, it allows them to outbid other consumers for
stuff, and raises the overall cost of stuff, but since it didn't
create any more stuff, the union members benefit at the cost to
others.

It wasn't unionization that resulted in the improved living standards
and work conditions they like to take credit for; it was technology
and the resulting productivity. Henry Ford introduced the $3 workday,
outraging other manufacturers, before Ford was even unionized. He did
it to increase productivity (not, as legend has it, so his employees
could afford cars... that makes no sense at all.) The employees
thanked him by unionizing and establishing work rules to reduce
productivity.

Pay without productivy is just inflation.


John

 

[Homer J Simpson]

When is the discharge of 93 US Attorneys immaterial?

When a new administration comes into office and makes a clean sweep.

When is the discharge of 9 US Attorneys extreme abuse of Presidential
Powers?

When they are fired because they prosecuted only 5 times as many Democrats
as Republicans. They weren't supposed to prosecute ANY Republicans. After
all, that's what the bribes were for.

Guess ;-)

Don't need to.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Wrong. You can't distribute more than you create, no matter how much
green paper is available. Whenever, say, a union negotiates higher
wages for the same work, it allows them to outbid other consumers for
stuff, and raises the overall cost of stuff, but since it didn't
create any more stuff, the union members benefit at the cost to
others.

In Cuba before the revolution they had thousands of salesmen and you could
buy everything.

In Cuba after the revolution they had no salesmen and you couldn't buy
anything.

Why do you hate capitalism?

 

[John Larkin]

In Cuba before the revolution they had thousands of salesmen and you could
buy everything.

In Cuba after the revolution they had no salesmen and you couldn't buy
anything.

Why do you hate capitalism?

Me? Hate capitalism?

But we live in a post-capitalist society, where owning big physical
stuff, "the means of production" that the Marxists and unionists used
to covet so, is mostly a liability. Ideas are what are really valuable
now.

John

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

Wrong. You can't distribute more than you create, no matter how much
green paper is available. Whenever, say, a union negotiates higher
wages for the same work, it allows them to outbid other consumers for
stuff, and raises the overall cost of stuff, but since it didn't
create any more stuff, the union members benefit at the cost to
others.

It wasn't unionization that resulted in the improved living standards
and work conditions they like to take credit for; it was technology
and the resulting productivity. Henry Ford introduced the $3 workday,
outraging other manufacturers, before Ford was even unionized. He did
it to increase productivity (not, as legend has it, so his employees
could afford cars... that makes no sense at all.) The employees
thanked him by unionizing and establishing work rules to reduce
productivity.

Pay without productivy is just inflation.


John

Okay, John, so you are conceeding defeat on the "building the huge house
benefits everyone" discussion, since you decided to change the argument
to Unions, instead...

Unions have their place, occasionally, to help curb some excesses of
management. For every good manager, that cares and understands what his
/her workers need, there appears to be a dozen PHBs that just want to
see how much blood they gan get out of that stone. However, arguing the
economics of unions is going to have to fall on someone else. I sure
won't defend them!

Charlie

 

[Richard The Dreaded Libertarian]

Okay, John, so you are conceeding defeat on the "building the huge house
benefits everyone" discussion, since you decided to change the argument
to Unions, instead...

Unions have their place, occasionally, to help curb some excesses of
management. For every good manager, that cares and understands what his
/her workers need, there appears to be a dozen PHBs that just want to
see how much blood they gan get out of that stone. However, arguing the
economics of unions is going to have to fall on someone else. I sure
won't defend them!

Unions are a mechanism where the lazy and incompetent can get a paycheck
whether they've earned it or not, and that holy grail: "job security".

If you have marketable skills, you can walk away from the "exploiter" and
work for someone who won't put up with extortion.

I'd also like to dispel the "sweatshop myth" - those kids are working for
five cents an hour (which, BTW, can be a pretty decent wage in some
places), is because it beats scrounging in the street for zero cents an
hour.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Unions are a mechanism where the lazy and incompetent can get a paycheck
whether they've earned it or not, and that holy grail: "job security".

Somewhere, at some time there may, possibly, once have been a union such as
you describe. However in my personal experience every time that a firm was
unionized or had a conflict with the employer it was caused by mind numbing
stupidity, greed or arrogance on the part of the management.

Some of the examples I know would make anyone shake their head at the
stupidity of these 'leaders'.

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

Somewhere, at some time there may, possibly, once have been a union such as
you describe. However in my personal experience every time that a firm was
unionized or had a conflict with the employer it was caused by mind numbing
stupidity, greed or arrogance on the part of the management.

Some of the examples I know would make anyone shake their head at the
stupidity of these 'leaders'.

The Evolution of Unions

by Charlie

In the Beginning was the Company, and the Company was God. And the
Company said "I must have Workers" and went out and hired them, and it
was good.

Then, the Company said "I must have Managers, to guide and direct my
Workers" so the company promoted some Workers to Managers, and it was good.

Then, came the MBA, who spoke to the Company, and said "I can make your
Workers and Managers more efficient, and thereby benefit the Company"
and persuaded and deceived the Company, and he was hired as CEO. And
the downfall began.

First the CEO tempted the Managers "Care not for the workers, as they
are but tools in your hands. Work them hard, manipulate them as I tell
you, and You and the Company shall benefit!" And the workers became
downtrodden.

Amongst the Workers there was weeping, and gnashing of teeth, and many
complaints to the Managers. But their hearts were hardened, as they
harkened to the MBAs and the CEOs, and they ignored the pleas and
warnings of the Workers.

Then, from within the Workers arouse Leaders and Rabble-Rousers, who
said "It is from us that the Company gains production, let us organize a
Union, and all shall be as it should. We shall rule the Company and our
lot shall be better!" And the Workers harkened to the Union, and
responed to the Managers with depravations of their own, the Strike, the
Boycott, the Lawsuit, and none were happy, but the Workers lot became
better.

And the Union Leaders and Rabble-Rousers saw that they had power. And
the MBAs came to them as well, and said "Care not for the workers, they
are but your tools. Manipulate their emotions, and work with the
Company as I show you, and your status shall be great." And the Leaders
and RRs saw in the MBAs a like mind, and that the CEOs were their
brothers, and that the Workers and Managers were weak. And so, we come
to where we are today...

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Then, the Company said "I must have Managers, to guide and direct my
Workers" so the company promoted some Workers to Managers, and it was
good.

One company I knew hired a football player as a board member, not based on
any business skill but purely because he was well known.

He gave a speech in which he referred to the company employees as
"interchangeable manufacturing units".

Yeah, that went down well.

 

[Richard The Dreaded Libertarian]

The Evolution of Unions

by Charlie

In the Beginning was the Company, and the Company was God. And the
Company said "I must have Workers" and went out and hired them, and it
was good.

Then, the Company said "I must have Managers, to guide and direct my
Workers" so the company promoted some Workers to Managers, and it was good.

Then, came the MBA, who spoke to the Company, and said "I can make your
Workers and Managers more efficient, and thereby benefit the Company"
and persuaded and deceived the Company, and he was hired as CEO. And
the downfall began.

First the CEO tempted the Managers "Care not for the workers, as they
are but tools in your hands. Work them hard, manipulate them as I tell
you, and You and the Company shall benefit!" And the workers became
downtrodden.

Amongst the Workers there was weeping, and gnashing of teeth, and many
complaints to the Managers. But their hearts were hardened, as they
harkened to the MBAs and the CEOs, and they ignored the pleas and
warnings of the Workers.

Then, from within the Workers arouse Leaders and Rabble-Rousers, who
said "It is from us that the Company gains production, let us organize a
Union, and all shall be as it should. We shall rule the Company and our
lot shall be better!" And the Workers harkened to the Union, and
responed to the Managers with depravations of their own, the Strike, the
Boycott, the Lawsuit, and none were happy, but the Workers lot became
better.

And the Union Leaders and Rabble-Rousers saw that they had power. And
the MBAs came to them as well, and said "Care not for the workers, they
are but your tools. Manipulate their emotions, and work with the
Company as I show you, and your status shall be great." And the Leaders
and RRs saw in the MBAs a like mind, and that the CEOs were their
brothers, and that the Workers and Managers were weak. And so, we come
to where we are today...

May I have your permission to use this, with attribution? When I say,
"By Charlie", should I say, "By Charlie Edmondson"?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

May I have your permission to use this, with attribution? When I say,
"By Charlie", should I say, "By Charlie Edmondson"?

Thanks,
Rich

Either way if fine!

More verses...

So, for a time, were the MBAs happy, as CEOs and Union Leaders lead the
way for high stock prices. But then they whispered into the CEOs ears
"Costs are high due to our Unions, let us find other Workers who know
them not, and exploit them for our benefit." And they found small towns
and out of the way areas to gain workers. And the Company profited, and
they called it good.

But then, the Unions moved even among these isolated workers, and
gathered them, and grew strong. Profits fell, and wages grew, and again
the MBAs become dissatisfied. "Let us seek workers from our neighbors
to the North and South. There the Unions will not find welcome." And
the Unions wailed, as their power diminished, and their Workers were
removed. And the Company grew strong, but the MBAs were still not
satisfied. "Let us move farther afield..." and they created Outsourcing
and the Flat Earth. And they gained Workers through the world, wherever
they were most easily exploited, and their companies prospered, for a time.

Charlie

 

[John Larkin]

Either way if fine!

More verses...

So, for a time, were the MBAs happy, as CEOs and Union Leaders lead the
way for high stock prices. But then they whispered into the CEOs ears
"Costs are high due to our Unions, let us find other Workers who know
them not, and exploit them for our benefit." And they found small towns
and out of the way areas to gain workers. And the Company profited, and
they called it good.

But then, the Unions moved even among these isolated workers, and
gathered them, and grew strong. Profits fell, and wages grew, and again
the MBAs become dissatisfied. "Let us seek workers from our neighbors
to the North and South. There the Unions will not find welcome." And
the Unions wailed, as their power diminished, and their Workers were
removed. And the Company grew strong, but the MBAs were still not
satisfied. "Let us move farther afield..." and they created Outsourcing
and the Flat Earth. And they gained Workers through the world, wherever
they were most easily exploited, and their companies prospered, for a time.

Charlie

And, in the end of times, when every nook and cranny of the world had
been mined for cheap labor, lo, there was no more cheap labor. And no
more poverty.

John