[Joseph2k]

I'm not so sure being a "ham" was the point. However, that is how many of
the current technicians/engineers (myself included) cut their teeth. IF it
weren't for people getting involved in electronics, those who can't seem
to understand the desire - would have no computers, no TV, no Stereo, no
anything. SOMEONE had to "design" these items and test them for them to be
able to be marketed. You just don't do that without "knowledge". Parts can
be soldered on by machine if need be - BUT - they had to be designed and
tested to get there. These kids wouldn't have their Gameboys, cell phones
and so on - if "someone" didn't take the initiative to design and create.
Maybe the phones are made in China, so be it - who do you think installs
the cell sites? Not chinese. SOMEONE has to know what to do. THERE IS -
need for people to become interested in electronics. Give that up and the
rest - and yes we will truly become slaves to those who would love to
destroy us. It is too easy to sit back and do nothing.

CLF

Ugh, white eyes start to see truth. It has been made too hard to do kit
electronics that is worth having, everyone expects to be able to build
something fun and useful on the first try; no thinking or much effort. I
have seen too many of them when the decide on engineering when they are
sophomore in college; and have no clue as how to understand or apply the
underlying theory. What bothers me the most is that somehow they graduate.

 

[Don Bowey]

I'm sure it will eventually. Ham will either evolve with the times or it
will fade out of existence. I know a few old timers who are into ham
radio but I've not yet met anyone in my 20-something generation who's
into it, not even one.

Maybe because young people don't want to put out the effort to become a ham,
you know, like, they wanna hang at the mall.

Don

 

[- exray -]

Don Bowey wrote:

Maybe because young people don't want to put out the effort to become a ham,
you know, like, they wanna hang at the mall.

Don

This lament is often repeated in many of the hobbies which are now
considered the territory of the oldsters. Communicating by radio and
messing with thumb-sized electronic components is passé. So is
collecting rocks or fern samples and scale model railroading.
I'm not so quick to write off a whole generation because they find their
stuff cooler than mine. That kid hanging at the mall can reach into his
pocket and pull out his toy and be in contact with China in a matter of
seconds. That pretty much kills any hope of impressing him with my rig
and hobby for communicating. Whoopee, I can build mine - but it doesn't
"work" as well as his.

There have always been kids who get into all sorts of things. I don't
think that the percentage of kids interested in technology has
decreased...I'd be inclined to think the opposite. Technology has
changed much more than the kids have. How many old radio farts are into
THEIR modern technology?

-Bill

 

[mc]

Maybe because young people don't want to put out the effort to become a
ham,
you know, like, they wanna hang at the mall.

And in 1955 they all wanted to watch or play football, or go cruising.

I think that, thanks to computers, the proportion of technologically
motivated young people is as high as it has ever been.

 

[Roy Lewallen]

And in 1955 they all wanted to watch or play football, or go cruising.

I think that, thanks to computers, the proportion of technologically
motivated young people is as high as it has ever been.

Why aren't they going to engineering school? There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort. Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S.
engineering schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of
Americans enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary
education here. Some major U.S. universities are even building branches
overseas in order to scare up enough students. And it's unusual now to
see a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation written
by someone raised in this country. It appears that our educational
system and the general culture is preparing people to be Wal-Mart
clerks, not engineers. Technologically motivated Wal-Mart clerks,
perhaps, but Wal-Mart clerks nonetheless. ("Joe over there is a real
whiz on the customer computer terminal. I'll recommend him for a 25 cent
raise if he keeps it up.") Engineering will soon join manufacturing in
overwhelmingly being done somewhere else, and for good reason.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

 

[mc]

Why aren't they going to engineering school? There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort. Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S. engineering
schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of Americans
enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary education
here.

There were plenty of Americans at Georgia Tech the last time I looked... all
over the place, in fact! And even MIT...

The reason IEEE Transactions papers seem always to be written by foreigners
is something to do with incentives, I think. Americans do engineering but
don't publish papers about it, at least not in IEEE Transactions. I think
this has something to do with the way American vs. Asian employers operate.

by someone raised in this country. It appears that our educational system
and the general culture is preparing people to be Wal-Mart clerks, not
engineers. Technologically motivated Wal-Mart clerks, perhaps, but
Wal-Mart clerks nonetheless.

And in 1955 it was preparing every male to be a football player and every
female to be a homemaker. Yet we survived.

Another thing to keep in mind: Circuit design is yesterday's challenge. One
of the biggest technological challenges we face is how to organize and
manage huge amounts of information. I know a lot of young people (2 of them
in my own house) who are keenly interested in that. It just isn't something
that looms large in the "engineering" curriculum yet, just as electronics
didn't in 1880.

 

[Joel Kolstad]

That kid hanging at the mall can reach into his pocket and pull out his
toy and be in contact with China in a matter of seconds. That pretty much
kills any hope of impressing him with my rig and hobby for communicating.

Sooner or later, one would hope that that kid in the mall would like to see
beyond the "magic" and have a sit-down chat with the man behind the curtain.
The Internet, cell phones, etc. ARE very cool, but if one can start to
understand the technology behind them, hopefully they'll also understand why
something like HF radio, simple AM/FM receivers, etc. can be cool as well.

There was an article in some IEEE magazine not too long ago where the author
was lamenting the fact that not only are things like digital radio and video
very complicated to understand in the first place, but in nearly all cases
today the details of their formatting/modulation/etc. are purposely
obfuscated and the content itself encrypted, so pretty soon it's going to be
pretty much impossible for a motivated youngster to build a contemporary
radio receiver even if he or she did have access to the appropriate
hardware. A good example would be something like IBOC -- something like GNU
Radio is inexpensive (i.e., something a youngster could reasonably obtain
access to), yet there's no way to demodulate it since the standard behind it
is proprietary. :-( This despite the fact that it's being broadcast on the
"public" FM frequencies...

 

[- exray -]

Why aren't they going to engineering school?

I think we can blame that one on the public education system moreso than
any lack of interest. Public schools have exchanged emphasis on
technical skills (like spelling) in exchange for 'feel-good' subjects.

In years gone by an average kid who studied hard and got good grades
could get into an institution of higher learning. Probably had 2-3
years of advanced math under his belt and could find the college on a
map. Nowadays a straight A kid may only have his straight As in
non-engineering subjects and has little chance of getting into an
engineering school unless he has been privately educated or was
exceptional enough in a *good* public system.

-Bill

 

[[email protected]]

Why aren't they going to engineering school?

Computing skills can be learnt without the need for schooling, due to
the internet and its wide freely availabe range of self teaching
materials. Also this education can happen at times convenient to the
learner. It is a real move forward from the traditional schooling
model. Now we have large numbers of capable but not traditionally
qualified people, who didnt attend engineering school.

There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort. Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S.
engineering schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of
Americans enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary
education here.

Maybe we're seeing the same effcet as happened here (Britain) in the
ealy 1900s. In victorian times, building was a great technology, but as
new areas of tech came along, less and less people were involved in
building, and the standards of quality in that trade declined. Same
today with electronics, now that computing has become a serious and
powerful force.

Some major U.S. universities are even building branches
overseas in order to scare up enough students. And it's unusual now to
see a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation written
by someone raised in this country. It appears that our educational
system and the general culture is preparing people to be Wal-Mart
clerks, not engineers. Technologically motivated Wal-Mart clerks,
perhaps, but Wal-Mart clerks nonetheless. ("Joe over there is a real
whiz on the customer computer terminal. I'll recommend him for a 25 cent
raise if he keeps it up.") Engineering will soon join manufacturing in
overwhelmingly being done somewhere else, and for good reason.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

It strikes me as a simple case of consequences of actions. US public
education is of low quality, so people arent coming out well educated,
motivated, or able to make good of their lives. When a country's
education is as good as it can be, instead of as bad as it can be, not
surprisingly people come out more capable, more motivated and so on,
and go on and do well.

This is a basic error in American politics. Spend as little as possible
so I get to keep my share, but its then a greater share of less in
total. The only way a country will do better and better over time is if
education is as good a quality as one can get.

When you produce so many badly educated people, there becomes no longer
the ability for the masses to understand the issues well enough to make
the right policy choices, and things decline even further. Through
history, those societies that have done relatively well have been ones
where education was regarded as real important. It is a simple choice
for US to make, but US seems to show no insight into its condition.

Here in Britain we're going the same way, with standards falling all
round, sacrificed in many cases to rather naive pc ideals. I just hope,
as the evidence mounts up, that PC will be put back into its proper
place some day.


NT

 

[Mike McGinn]

Roy Lewallen wrote:



I think we can blame that one on the public education system moreso than
any lack of interest. Public schools have exchanged emphasis on technical
skills (like spelling) in exchange for 'feel-good' subjects.

In years gone by an average kid who studied hard and got good grades could
get into an institution of higher learning. Probably had 2-3 years of
advanced math under his belt and could find the college on a map.
Nowadays a straight A kid may only have his straight As in non-engineering
subjects and has little chance of getting into an engineering school
unless he has been privately educated or was exceptional enough in a
*good* public system.

-Bill

I think they are not going to engineering school for two reasons.
1) With less effort they can go to law school and make more money.
2) The contraction of the electronics industry in the US. There are
not nearly as many jobs there as there was when I started as a tech 26
years ago.

These kids need to be able to eat. I advise my son (14) to study something
he is interested in at college, graduate and become a plumber or
electrician. They won't be sending clogged toilets overseas.

BTW - He likes trons too.

 

[Don Bowey]

And in 1955 they all wanted to watch or play football, or go cruising.

Yes, in the 50s we did do all that, but there was still time for ham radio
(midnight to 3am when HF was open to the world).

I think that, thanks to computers, the proportion of technologically
motivated young people is as high as it has ever been.

My opinion is a little different. In the 50s we were motivated to study
electronics and use the technology to build equipment and then to use the
equipment, modify it, and recover parts from it to try something different.

Most of today's youth doesn't care for all that work. Getting "it" and
using "it" is the entire objective.

Using the products of technology is a spectator sport.

Don

 

[Bob Shuman]

mc wrote:
Why aren't they going to engineering school? There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort. Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S.
engineering schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of
Americans enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary
education here. ... Engineering will soon join manufacturing in
overwhelmingly being done somewhere else, and for good reason.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy,

I believe that the shrinking engineering school attendance is directly
related to the shrinking engineering job opportunities in the US. Global
communications have enabled large US corporations to move a significant
portion of their high paying technical jobs off shore to lower cost regions.
With fewer and fewer opportunities, the out of work engineers, find
themselves competing for fewer and fewer jobs. HS students selecting a
college major see this and many of them decide that it is more important to
be able to make a living than to pursue this discipline. Many of my former
peers elected to change careers with a significant reduction in salary when
they were unable to find engineering work during the last few years.

Bob

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

Why aren't they going to engineering school? There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort.

Would you point a kid who was wavering towards a career in
engineering?

Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S.
engineering schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of
Americans enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary
education here. Some major U.S. universities are even building branches
overseas in order to scare up enough students. And it's unusual now to
see a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation written
by someone raised in this country. It appears that our educational
system and the general culture is preparing people to be Wal-Mart
clerks, not engineers. Technologically motivated Wal-Mart clerks,
perhaps, but Wal-Mart clerks nonetheless. ("Joe over there is a real
whiz on the customer computer terminal. I'll recommend him for a 25 cent
raise if he keeps it up.") Engineering will soon join manufacturing in
overwhelmingly being done somewhere else, and for good reason.

Nah, the idjits are going into idjit jobs, just like they always did.
More of the smarter kids are going into medicine, law, and business.
It takes more effort and money than engineering, perhaps, but the
payoff is you are less likely to be outsourced or become obsolescent
halfway through your working life.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Keith Williams]

Hello Keith,




It's about 6000 miles for me now. And I love it.

Once you get past a certain point, any further doesn't mean much.

Home can be almost anywhere as long as one is willing to make friends,
integrate and most of all, learn the customs and the language.

Sure. Family is still important. I'd like to be closer now that
my mother is getting older (92) and won't be around forever. We
missed being close to my MIL (died a year ago) and the FIL (20
years ago). Seeing family once or twice a year is a negative.
Living next door is on the other extreme, however.

 

[Mike Coslo]

Have you listened to the ham bands lately?
There is a deadly silence there most of the time.
I wonder how fast the ham population is
disappearing.....

hmm, better check to see if your setup is working. If you are listening
to the bands where propagation is working it is getting difficult to
find an open space.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

 

[Mike Coslo]

Why aren't they going to engineering school? There's no doubt it takes
considerable effort. Take a look at the breakdown at the U.S.
engineering schools and you'll find a small and decreasing number of
Americans enrolled -- at least those who got their primary and secondary
education here.

American youth are being steered in other directions now. And even
those who are not being steered in that direction may take a look at
engineering and wonder "Why the heck would I want to do that"?

The kid is going to have to work long and hard though their college
days. No gut courses for you, my friend! Then they are going to get a
job in which they are expected to get their job done, and if that means
you work 80 hour weeks, then so be it. That nice paycheck isn't so great
when you break it into hourly rates.

There is a lot more money to be made, at less effort, by becoming a
manager, MBA, or the like. So unless a person really really has a
passion for engineering, they select some other way to make a living.
And for good or bad, too many people chase max money at minimum effort

Some major U.S. universities are even building branches
overseas in order to scare up enough students. And it's unusual now to
see a paper in the IEEE Transactions on Antennas and Propagation written
by someone raised in this country. It appears that our educational
system and the general culture is preparing people to be Wal-Mart
clerks, not engineers.

Because in the not so distant future, there will be a much greater need
for Wal-Mart employees! 8^(

Technologically motivated Wal-Mart clerks,
perhaps, but Wal-Mart clerks nonetheless. ("Joe over there is a real
whiz on the customer computer terminal. I'll recommend him for a 25 cent
raise if he keeps it up.") Engineering will soon join manufacturing in
overwhelmingly being done somewhere else, and for good reason.

Sad but true, Roy.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

 

[Joerg]

Hello Keith,

Once you get past a certain point, any further doesn't mean much.

Well, it still matters whether it takes a multi-leg flight of 20+ hours
to get there or a one-hop of 7 hours. But I won't complain when I think
about folks who emigrated from Europe to Australia. Getting to their old
home country is a major endeavor for them.

When my wife's parent's were still alive it was nice to know that we
could be there in half a day, which we had to do a lot.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Keith Williams]

Hello Keith,


Well, it still matters whether it takes a multi-leg flight of 20+ hours
to get there or a one-hop of 7 hours. But I won't complain when I think
about folks who emigrated from Europe to Australia. Getting to their old
home country is a major endeavor for them.

And when we go back it's an eighteen hour drive, each way. It's a
PITA flying the last 200mi and I'd need to rent a car anyway.
Driving isn't a lot more expensive and we can take a lot more junk
with us.

When my wife's parent's were still alive it was nice to know that we
could be there in half a day, which we had to do a lot.

Indeed. Unfortunately, there won't be all that many more trips.

 

[Mike Coslo]

I'm sure it will eventually. Ham will either evolve with the times or it
will fade out of existence.

Yeah, I want to get my spam via Ham radio!!!

Considering that some 73 percent of email is spam and/or virus laden
garbage, and that there are much better ways for Hams to get their email
if they really want to, utilizing HF for email solutions is like an
answer to ten year old questions.


Besides - thinking that email is "High-Tech" is to start off with an
erroneous assumption.

I know a few old timers who are into ham
radio but I've not yet met anyone in my 20-something generation who's
into it, not even one.

A sample of one? I know several young amateurs in my area, and we turn
out dozens every year at the local college. And some other stats are
that plenty of new licenses are being issued. I can't vouch for the ages
of these newbies, but even if they are not kids, they are new hams.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

 

[Mike Coslo]

Hi John,




Whether or not a Windows system is reliable has much more to do with the
person setting it up than the OS itself; thousands of "mission critical"
Windows systems prove that every day.

Which is of course another way of saying that the person behind the
computer has to know a whole lot more if using a PC (or have a
department of people that keep them running)





Personally, I'd be choosing my

hardware basd on the applications I wanted to run... that pretty much rules
out Macs, whereas Linux could be a decent contender given that there is
plenty of good amateur radio software for it.

Your correct about the Apps. That is why I end up using both PC and Mac
on a continual basis. The Mac has it all over the PC in terms of getting
the work done, Especially if I have to make any software or hardware
changes.

My suggestion was that the best thing hams could do for the average person
would be to set up a PC to let them send e-mail, but I'd certainly agree
that if you don't have a laptop lying around to do that with, there's still
some benefit in being able to relay voice messages. (And compared to a
decent HF radio, its power supply, and antenna, adding a laptop as well
doesn't do much to increase weight, decrease mobility, etc., but it does
provide a marked increase in communications flexibility.)

I dunno, Joel. Are you saying that using a Ham radio to send email is
going to impress someone? It just seems so odd to me that people who can
now text message others with their cell phones, and IM each other on a
regular basis are going to be impressed by a big HF setup. I mean email
in general is a real yawner (unless we buy those stimulants offered in
the 75 percent of email that is spam) 8^)

73 de Mike KB3EIA -