[Eeyore]

And your plan of action for the wasting of such spare/surplus clean
energy is ????

There is no 'spare energy' nor is there ever likely to be. Simple economics will
prevent it.

Graham

 

[Eric Gisin]

There's some debate about whether silicon solar cell arrays *ever*
deliver back the energy it took to manufacture them.

There's no debate among the sane, it only takes a few years to payback.
Who is making these claims,
the idiots who claim it takes more energy to mine uranium than produced?

And when I see projections of 20+ year lifetimes for solar arrays,
with no significant maintanance budget, I know I'm dealing with
dreamers. And let's not forget the batteries, the inverters, and the
fun with wind storms.

Here, in San Francisco, rooftop solar is a fad, despite being pretty
far north and having maybe 1/3 of the days where the sun actually
shines. It's going to be fun when all those roofs start leaking, and
the panels need to be removed to get at the roof.

You need to watch more South Park.
"Smug" is about San Frannies who drive hybrids.

 

[Jamie]

You'll never get back the energy it took to liquefy the O2.

Sorry.
Rich

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

When they were getting ready to installed them, the energy businesses
that supply our state tried very hard to find ways to prevent them from
building the units. Because it's a reservation, they found there wasn't
much they could do about it. So the only recourse they had was tried to
push the pollution restrictions on them in hopes they wouldn't build
them how ever, after test were done, they found that with all 3 units
operating, the CO2 output was less than a single car on the average. So
what they did was import some tree's that likes this environment and
the end results is. The air in that area is cleaner than most in our state.

Currently, CLP (connecticut Light & Power) is building beside a school
and most likely else where. Water powered generating plant. The deal was
to let then build one there and thus the school gets it's power for
free. I forgot what they said the generator will put out, but it's a lot
and will be supplying many homes in that area.

So. there you go.

 

[Eeyore]

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

So where does the energy to replace 'the things that wear out' come from ?

Is this solar powered electrolytic hydrogen being used ?

How much did it cost ? How much power does it generate ? What's the price per
kWh ?

Graham

 

[bill]

So where does the energy to replace 'the things that wear out' come from
Is this solar powered electrolytic hydrogen being used ?

How much did it cost ? How much power does it generate ? What's the price per
kWh ?

Graham

It's 2 400kw watt natural gas fuel cells cogenerating for hot
water and heat. The emissions he was talking about are NOX, not CO2,
and there's no hydrogen involved anywhere.
www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

 

[Jamie]

Jamie wrote:




So where does the energy to replace 'the things that wear out' come from ?

ha, most likely from those that work there.
you know, mechanics, electricians etc..

Is this solar powered electrolytic hydrogen being used ?

We don't get a lot of sun up this way (New England). And as I said
before. they have trees all around the place. there are no form of
solar energy collections system there.

How much did it cost ? How much power does it generate ? What's the price per
kWh ?

I have no idea, all I know is, they operate the facility (all
buildings) with these generators 24/7.

The only location that is not operating with these generators is
the gas station and store the tribe has which sits just out side the
grounds of the casino. They run on commercial power and are backed up
via their generators if needed. And as for the Casino area. there is
one building that has commercial back up which is where the bank and
things like that are. As far as I know, they have never had to use the
commercial power since they put these units in operation. I remember a
couple of years ago when there was a bad storm that knocked out service
in that area for a long time. There was a near by medical facility that
they supplied power to until that following weekend where they could
safely switch back over to commercial again.. I think that was a nice
thing for them to do.

P.S.
There is a river just behind the place. I think they treat that water
for drinking and what ever else.
Like I said, the Casino is self sufficient.

The other casino not to far from it "Fox Woods" does not use fuel cell
generators. They're using diesel for the generators and I do understand
that they are interested in going into fuel cells if they haven't already.

 

[Jamie]

It's 2 400kw watt natural gas fuel cells cogenerating for hot
water and heat. The emissions he was talking about are NOX, not CO2,
and there's no hydrogen involved anywhere.
www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

That's strange, that isn't what I was told. oh well. I was told they had
3 not 2.
or maybe that was 3 buildings that house the whole thing.

 

[Eeyore]

It's 2 400kw watt natural gas fuel cells cogenerating for hot
water and heat. The emissions he was talking about are NOX, not CO2,
and there's no hydrogen involved anywhere.
www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

Thanks.

It's simply an alternative to burning the gas to make steam to run turbines or
burning the gas directly in gas turbines.. Sounds entirely sensible to me. Clearly
not 'self-sufficient' in any way though unless the natural gas appears out of fresh
air !

Graham

 

[John Larkin]

Are all the DNAs of the John Larkin's as incest mutated into having
become as snookered and dumbfounded past the point of no return?

I'm an engineer. I design stuff that works.

What do you do?


John

 

[Eeyore]

Like I said, the Casino is self sufficient.

Clearly totally untrue as they use natural gas.
www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

As ever you simply can't get anything right.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

That's strange, that isn't what I was told. oh well. I was told they had
3 not 2.
or maybe that was 3 buildings that house the whole thing.

Try using your BRAIN before talking shit (yet again) will you ?

Graham

 

[John Larkin]

Again I'll kindly ask, as to what would the all-knowing likes of John
Larkin otherwise do with whatever spare/surplus clean energy?

Is such a thing existed, which it doesn't and probably never will,
whoever owns it will sell it at market rates.

BTW, topic rubbish is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and I for
one do not behold rubbish. Your out of context rants are typical of
yet another ExxonMobil brown-nosed minion, whereas my rants are trying
to be as on-topic positive and constructive. Of course you and others
of your kind wouldn't see any difference, as you'd just as soon run
everything on coal and mostly N2.

How can you run anything on N2?

William Mook's perfectly good idea of effeciently creating and then
piping his H2 into those old but trusty oil wells should buy us a few
spare decades worth of spendy access to our very own raw fossil fuel
(though a shame to waste all of that nifty H2). However, I was
thinking along the lines of more like setting up 100 of my 4+MW tower
units per day, if necessary we'd also import those required 10,000
assembly/installation workers at far less than $.10/dollar, especially
since it's all pretty much way too complicated for the naysay likes of
yourself or most other rusemasters in such naysay denial, and besides
by then our dollar may not even be worth $.50 anyway.

You've gone from ranting to raving.

Can you do the math on one of your towers? The best engineers and
scientists can't get wind or solar generation up without subsidies.
It's not like nobody has thought of these things before.

John

 

[John Larkin]

There's no debate among the sane, it only takes a few years to payback.
Who is making these claims,
the idiots who claim it takes more energy to mine uranium than produced?

You need to watch more South Park.
"Smug" is about San Frannies who drive hybrids.

Yup, the Toyota Pious.

John

 

[Robert Adsett]

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

When they were getting ready to installed them, the energy businesses
that supply our state tried very hard to find ways to prevent them from
building the units. Because it's a reservation, they found there wasn't
much they could do about it. So the only recourse they had was tried to
push the pollution restrictions on them in hopes they wouldn't build
them how ever, after test were done, they found that with all 3 units
operating, the CO2 output was less than a single car on the average. So
what they did was import some tree's that likes this environment and
the end results is. The air in that area is cleaner than most in our state.

Fromthe sounds of things that would be a SOFC (possibly as a co-
generator) fed from natural gas?

Robert

 

[Robert Adsett]

It's 2 400kw watt natural gas fuel cells cogenerating for hot
water and heat. The emissions he was talking about are NOX, not CO2,
and there's no hydrogen involved anywhere.
www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

Well, it'll certainly produce CO2 (and probably some CO but hopefully
not much).

Robert

 

[krw]

Why bother when there is all this nice atmospheric O2 around to oxidize
my fuel. Sure, it has this nice regulating N2 mixed in, but that way
everything else don't burst into flames! I ain't going into outer space
in this thing, ya know! ;-)

But if you had H2O2 you could be in outer space[*], like Brad.

[*] Way out there.

 

[bill]

Try using your BRAIN before talking shit (yet again) will you ?

Graham

C'mon graham, he did better than most. he posted an interesting
anecdote and was not in any way arrogant or rude about any part of
it. don't let guth and sparky wear you into thinking that all the
posters here are such losers, some just are a little new to the format
of discussions here. errors are not crimes.

 

[Robert Adsett]

Cool. Arrange for them to spin at 60 Hz and avoid inverter losses!

But solar cells are so last century. The new new thing is sun-pumped
lasers.

Well obviously we gots to add som of those!

Robert

 

[John Larkin]

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

That's interesting.

In 4.5 years, they generated about 16 MWH of electricity, worth around
$1.2 megabucks. And they paid $2.8M for equipment and $1.7M for fuel.

It looks like there was a lot of maintanance costs, too.

John

 

[JosephKK]

[email protected] [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:

Most of the fuel vaporization takes place during the intake stroke.

The compression stroke is to get the piston back to the top so the
ignition has something usefull to do.

Squirting LOX into a cylinder will tend to cool everything off
rather quickly, and perhaps too quickly.

Wrong and wronger. How about you really try it you fools.