[Rich Grise]

So where does the energy to replace 'the things that wear out' come from ?

Is this solar powered electrolytic hydrogen being used ?

How much did it cost ? How much power does it generate ? What's the price per
kWh ?

I just wonder where they're getting the hydrogen for these fuel
cells.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[BradGuth]

I'm an engineer. I design stuff that works.

What do you do?

I too engineer from scratch, as well as often having to fix the kind
of crapolla stuff that you naysayers tend to so often engineer,
whereas I'm making it better, more reliable, efficient and at times a
little safer. I also use the regular laws of physics and the best
available science, along with deductive reasoning for the process of
connecting the best of those dots that you naysayers in denial can't
even see because of your rage against humanity and of our badly
failing environment that you obviously don't care a tinkers damn
about.
- Brad Guth -

 

[Rich Grise]

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

That's interesting.

In 4.5 years, they generated about 16 MWH of electricity, worth around
$1.2 megabucks. And they paid $2.8M for equipment and $1.7M for fuel.

It looks like there was a lot of maintanance costs, too.[/QUOTE]

That's OK - the Indians have casinos, giving them an infinite supply
of money. >:->

Cheers!
Rich

 

[[email protected]]

Then, please educate us. What, exactly, is the difference between
"combustion" and "a chemical reaction"?

Thanks,
Rich

In the common vernacular, combustion occurs when you light a candle and
a chemical reaction occurs when you toss a chunk of sodium in water.

Or, in other words, things don't burn until the fuel is gas and the
fuel/oxygen mix is brought to the ignition temperature, again in the
common vernacular.

 

[Richard Henry]

I just wonder where they're getting the hydrogen for these fuel
cells.

Reformed natural gas.

 

[[email protected]]

Ah, but don't we all! Although, my pot ain't cracked. It is just an
irregular seam... ;-)

Yeah, Bill might be a little over the edge, but if he had a string of
his panels (say, 4-5 of them) that he wanted to test under desert
conditions, I would be glad to help him out!

Charlie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tests have been completed on the core design. I'm now putting
together production capabilities.

I'm putting together a several strings of 1,100 panels. Each string
is 4,400 ft long by 8 ft wide - wired together at the factory like
Christmas Tree lights. They are transported on a 52' flatbed trailer
z-folded together.

There are three different types, the same lens system illuminating
different targets, and include;

(1) Silicon based - multi-junction (to reduce parasitic heating) 18%
efficiency. Each 4' x 8' panel containing 4,608 lenses, produce 570
watts electrical under full illumination.

(2) Ge/GaAs/InPh based - multi-junction at 40% efficiency (6
junctions 4 of them GaAs at different doping levels). Each panel
produces 1,266 watts electrical under full illumination.

(3) Anodized aluminum based - thermal heat transfer at 98%
efficiency. Oil is fed through a small anodized aluminum target that
is heated to 220C. The hot oil flows back to an insulated dewar where
it is stored for up to 24 hours. The oil is heated when the sun
shines. The hot oil is stored throughout the day to provide a
constant stream of hot oil that is used in a multi-stage flash
evaporator that efficiently distills sea water or brackish water
continuously.

NOTE ON LENS: A fisheye lens focuses the sun to a small point within
an image plane inside the lens. There, a compound element redirects
the sunlight no matter where it falls on the image plane to a target.
This system has no moving parts and can collect sunlight and
efficiently concentrate it and direct it no matter where it originates
in the sky. This apparent exceeding of the entendue' limit is only
apparent. the compound element actually can be considered thousands
of separate elements each of which operates well within the optical
limits for such devices, even though the separate optical systems all
reuse the same fisheye lens. This is a fundamental improvement in
lens technology. The lens itself consists of thin sheets of PET film
hot press molded into precise optical shapes and then bonded together
using ultrasonic welding in a water bath. The bulk of the lensing
medium is water (actually a special chemical mix that shifts colors
slightly around for greater efficiency) which also acts to cool the
target which is immersed in the lens medium. In this way costs of
less than $0.07 per peak watt are achieved.

LOAD MATCHING: PV devices vary their output based on lighting
conditions. Since lighting conditions vary throughout the day, the
output of PV devices vary from sunrise, to noon, to sunset, and due to
weather. For that reason the amount of power generated by the device
varies. In order to make efficient use of the available power, solar
panels must be attached to loads that precisely match their output.
This is called peak power matching. This intertie requirement,
including converting DC to AC is a fundamental limitation on solar
panel use. I have developed a very low cost method of varying
hydrogen production in a simple alkaline based electrolysis unit. The
unit consists of a plastic drum on its side filled half way with
water. The water stays in the bottom half. Into this drum is also
inserted a number of 'D' shaped stainless steel electrodes. Above
each electrode are two headers that collect hydrogen and oxygen that
form on the surface of each electrode and bubble to the surface of the
water. The water has potassium hydroxide electolyte to improve
conductivity. A simple float system like in your toilet tank controls
water level. The electrodes are suspended by an insulating tube and a
+ and - voltage is applied from the solar panels to the sides of each
tank. The voltage gets evenly divided among the electrodes 2500
electrodes across 20 tanks divide out the 4500 VDC from the panel
string. 550 panels feed one end of the string. 550 panels feed the
other end of the string. 1 lens based CPV device out of each panel,
feeds current to a low resistance load, producing a shunt current.
These are OR'd together to each end producing an estimate of the short
circuit current under the lighting conditions. Another 1 of the 4608
CPV units per panel produce an open circuit voltage, which is OR'd
together with 549 other panels to produce an open circuit voltage
estimate for the string. These two signals are fed into an op-amp
based controller that rotates a servo motor in response to lighting
conditions. This servo, attached to a small nylon gear train/cam
system rotates the D shaped electrodes into and out of solution -
varying the area of the electrodes in response to lighting
conditions. The cam, gear train and op-amps provide a real-time
linear solution to the Nernst equation for the panel/tank setup. The
tank operates at a high pressure, and the oxygen is released through a
blow-down turbine that pressurizes the replacement water fed into the
system.

COST NOTES
The cost of the entire system, including electrolysis units, and
hydrogen gathering system, and pressurization system - is $0.07 per
peak watt - inclusive of the solar panels.

FINANCING PROGRAM:

An 1,100 MW coal fired baseload power plant burns 10,847 tons of coal
each day and produces 33,200 tons of carbon dioxide each day. I enter
a long-term 20 year supply contract with the operators to trade the
coal for 1,750 tons of hydrogen each day, eliminating the carbon.
That way they continue receiving coal and need not break long-term
supply contracts with the coal providers, and when a new hydrogen
fired boiler is added to the system, they have a dual fuel capability.

The avoided carbon can be monetized through the CCX or similar scheme.
Current value of avoided carbon is $18 per ton. A 20 year supply
contract avoids 242 million tons of carbon-dioxide producing credits
that can be sold for $4.3 billion today.

The hydrogen is exchanged for coal, a commodity. A total of 79.2
million tons of coal is committed. At $55 per ton another $4.3
billion of value can be leveraged.

Thus, even though the utility pays nothing for the hydrogen, by
signing an appropriately termed contract, $8.6 billion can be raised
to produce solar panels, electrolysis units, hydrogen distribution,
hydrogen storage and retrieval, and hydrogen fired boilers.

The 1,100 MW plant requires 2,895 MW thermal to operate. This
requires 3,405 MW solar electric (continuous) to supply the hydrogen.
If the collectors are located in a region that receives 1900 hours per
year of sunlight, then 15,712 MW peak solar collecting capacity is
needed. 12.4 million panels or 11,282 strings or 17 square miles - of
collectors are needed. This costs $1.1 billion to install, and takes
the factory I am building 32 days to produce.

The hydrogen is delivered by teflon coated stainless steel pipe at
high pressure, and is stored in empty oil wells. The hydrogen
mobilizes stationary oil, and that oil is separated from the retrieved
hydrogen and sold. A 100 day supply of hydrogen - or 175,000 tons per
1.1 GW of power plant supporte - is maintained.

The 10,847 tons of coal delivered to the power plant each day is
converted at the site by direct high-pressure hydrogenation by a
variant of the Bergius process to 3.2 million gallons of gasoline by
adding 990 tons of hydrogen to the coal. And additional 1,600 tons of
asphalt is also produced. Over $5 million per day is generated from
fuel and asphalt sales. This creates an additional $22 billion in
value - which is retained by me and shared with the power plant
owner. The cost of the hydrogenation reactor is $3.9 billion. The
cost of pipeline, storage retrieval and control systems is $1 billion
for a plant this size (including gasoline gathering).

So, bottom line;

COSTS

$1.1 billion - solar/hydrogen system
$3.9 billion - coal liquefaction/processing
$1.0 billion - extended delivery retrieval
----------------------
$6.0 billion

VALUES

$4.3 billion - carbon credits
$4.3 billion - coal trade value
$22.0 billion - gasoline production
----------------------
$30.6 billion

IMMEDIATE FINANCING

$4.3 billion - carbon credit sales
$2.7 billion - borrowing against coal value
--------------------
$7.0 billion - total early cash


I have two projects underway and I am negotiating for additional
projects. These are overseas in countries that have signed the Kyoto
Protocol.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Yeah, but I wonder if he's actually ever built anything useful, that
actually works.

MAYBE an extension cord?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[John Larkin]

Squirting LOX into a cylinder will tend to cool everything off
rather quickly, and perhaps too quickly.

Rocket engines don't seem to mind.

John

 

[John Larkin]

Very good, now imagine if those units were running on William Mook's
efficiently obtained H2, as there be zilch worth of CO2. In fact,
you'd have to artificially introduce CO2 so that those trees would
have what they need.

Our resident usenet naysayers and always in total denial are in deed
funny as hell, as well as usually Yids to boot.
- Brad Guth -

Guth... that's Jewish, right?

John

 

[John Larkin]

I too engineer from scratch,

So, tell us about things you've designed lately. Electronics,
preferably, since this is s.e.d.

John

 

[Rich Grise]

Rocket engines don't seem to mind.

The way I heard it, they have a tube around the nozzle where the
liquid goes, specifically to cool it - of course, by the time it
reaches the combustion chamber, it's probably already ready vapor
or in quite a hurry to get that way!

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

In the common vernacular, combustion occurs when you light a candle and
a chemical reaction occurs when you toss a chunk of sodium in water.

Or, in other words, things don't burn until the fuel is gas and the
fuel/oxygen mix is brought to the ignition temperature, again in the
common vernacular.

Careful with that "common vernacular" stuff - Engineers probably don't
like it very much.

Thanks!
Rich

 

[BradGuth]

Is such a thing existed, which it doesn't and probably never will,
whoever owns it will sell it at market rates.


How can you run anything on N2?




You've gone from ranting to raving.

Can you do the math on one of your towers? The best engineers and
scientists can't get wind or solar generation up without subsidies.
It's not like nobody has thought of these things before.

That's true, as I haven't invented or even discovered one damn thing.
It's all old science and much older physics that hasn't changed nor
will it likely ever change. The hard question is about accomplishing
clean energy alternatives, not about whatever's the least spendy forms
of energy on Earth that disregards human safety as well as having
otherwise pillaged, raped and trashed mother Earth for all she's worth
in the process, not to mention the likes of collateral spendy, mostly
innocent bloody and otherwise extremely polluting wars that you folks
can't seem to ever get enough of.

A sufficient mass production of those 100+ meter towers, along with
their wind turbine driven generators plus whatever extent of the best
available PVs that can also take advantage of each given tower without
devouring or otherwise contaminating precious surface ground area
seems entirely worth our doing, that is unless we surcome to the ENRON/
ExxonMobil naysay likes of yourself and of other coal burning and
yellowcake polluting bigots for a buck, that are anything but birth-to-
grave efficient or without having traumatised our frail environment
past the point of no return.

Can you say again as to why you folks so hate humanity, and care less
about our environment?
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

BradGuthwrote:

Why bother when there is all this nice atmospheric O2 around to oxidize
my fuel. Sure, it has this nice regulating N2 mixed in, but that way
everything else don't burst into flames! I ain't going into outer space
in this thing, ya know! ;-)

But if you had H2O2 you could be in outer space[*], like Brad.

That is true, as the h2o2/c12h26 powered Hummer or GM Volt would in
fact operate even better while in space, such as upon our moon, or
even while under terrestrial water or within whatever muck, and still
be delivering terrific empg as well as contributing zero NOx.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

[email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:








Perception here is the issue. Everybody who has tried to beat
standard physics has failed. If you know so much better, build it;
on your own money. Then, when it works, you may speak. You are
reminded of Pons and Fleischman. Everybody who tried to duplicate
the result failed. Until then go away.

Prototypes plus actual installations that function have been built,
and the likes of William Mook and myself tend to stick within the
regular laws of physics and otherwise put to good use the best
available science, such as those fuel cells running so nicely on
natural gas hasn't polluted the environment or taken a bite out of our
badly overloaded grid that's getting mostly electron pumped via coal
plus h2o and extensively N2 fired, of which that nasty coal obviously
works as long as we don't mind a few thousand dead coal miners per
year, accepting global gigatonnes worth of CO2 and otherwise butt
loads of NOx and many other sorts of nasty elements contributed down-
wind or put back into surface and ground water, as well as taken such
volumes of having outright consumed and/or vaporised precious fresh
water.

Those 4+ MW producing towers have been a done deal in other parts of
this world that are not nearly as all-knowing arrogant and bigoted as
you'll find right here within this usenet cesspool of naysayers in
denial about everything that rocks their status quo good ship
LOLLIPOP, and it's mostly a Jewish ship of fools and/or rusemasters to
boot.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

It's remarkable how little you do understand.

It's easy to imagine things when you are unencumbered by numbers.

And what's this "Yid" obsession about? That makes as little sense as
the rest of your ravings.

You're not even from Earth, so how would you know or care otherwise?

Your black hole of insurmountable naysayism is so in denial that it's
fully understandable as to why you'd knowingly work on behalf of the
likes of big energy, or GW Bush or for that matter Hitler.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

Here is a more complete quote from the tribe's Jan 2007 report on the
project:

"The fuel cells proved to be very reliable by being available more
than 97 percent of the
time as shown in Table 1. The efficiency was very high, in the 85-90%
range because of
the full utilization of the heat in the application. To date
(12/31/2006), the value of the
electricity produced by the fuel cells is $1,247,324 as reported in
Table 2. The exhaust
heat generated during this period of time is 79,896 MMBtu and was used
for thermal
needs of the facilities as explained later. This accounted for an
additional $1,022,463 in
savings over this period of operation. Fuel cells operating on natural
gas are classified as
a Class I Renewable Energy source in Connecticut and therefore are
eligible for
Renewable Energy Credits (REC's) that are an additional source of
revenue generation
for the project. To date, Mohegan Sun has received about $276,810 in
REC's payments.
The cost of the fuel cells (equipment, installation, and maintenance)
was $2,848,360."

http://www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

Note that the fuel cell system was not installed to generate a profit,
but to offset the impact on the evironment by the casino due to things
like increased vehicle traffic. Even so, the tribe claims "cost
savings" of over $450,000 dollars in the fitst 5 years of operation
(see table 2 on page 5 of the report) and "operational savings" (which
ignores the installation costs)of over $2,000,000 (table 3, page 6).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a whole lot better, as a more honest review of such fuel cell
applications that didn't get one coal miner killed off, injured or
having otherwise raped and polluted mother Earth for all she's worth.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

Guth... that's Jewish, right?

More like Mennonite, not that being Jewish is a bad thing.
- Brad Guth -

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:35:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

Rocket engines don't seem to mind.

John

Rocket engines are continuous.

In internal combustion engines, the fire goes on and off.

I'm just wondering out loud what happens to the metal parts which
will be rather hot when hit with LOX.

Will thermal stress cracks be an issue?

 

[John Larkin]

A sufficient mass production of those 100+ meter towers, along with
their wind turbine driven generators plus whatever extent of the best
available PVs that can also take advantage of each given tower without
devouring or otherwise contaminating precious surface ground area
seems entirely worth our doing,

I get it. The solar cells have more output when they're closer to the
sun. Good idea.

John