[JosephKK]

[email protected] [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:

[about LOX, H2O2, etc.]
...

I don't know if such a thing would really work, or what
its
effects on an engine would be, but its a kinda cool idea. I
might make tinkering with it a winter project.

You'll never get back the energy it took to liquefy the O2.

Nothing is going to ignite until it is gas; that's what the
intake and compression strokes are for.

Filling a TDC cylinder with liquid fuel and liquid O2, I bet they'd
ignite real good, if the LOX doesn't freeze the fuel; you might
need a lot of energy to make a spark through it, however.

Liquids don't ignite.

If you are so very sure about, that i suggest that you try mixing
unsymmetrical di-methyl hydrazine (UDMH) and red fuming nitric acid
(RFNA) (glacial). Take very serious precautions and read the
relevant MSDS before making the attempt.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

I'm an engineer. I design stuff that works.

What do you do?

Proudly displays his ignorance and hatred of everyone in the
universe, like any troll should.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[JosephKK]

BradGuth [email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:

Rubbish is in the eye of the beholder, and I do not behold rubbish.

William Mook's perfectly good idea should buy us a few spare decades
worth of spendy access to our very own raw fossil fuel (though a
shame
to waste all of that nifty H2). However, I was thinking of more
like setting up 100 of my 4+MW tower units per day, if necessary
we'd also import those required 10,000 assembly/installation workers
at far less than $.10/dollar, especially since it's all way too
complicated for the naysay likes of yourself, and besides by then
our dollar may not even be worth $.50 anyway.
- Brad Guth -

Perception here is the issue. Everybody who has tried to beat
standard physics has failed. If you know so much better, build it;
on your own money. Then, when it works, you may speak. You are
reminded of Pons and Fleischman. Everybody who tried to duplicate
the result failed. Until then go away.

 

[Robert Adsett]

That's interesting.

In 4.5 years, they generated about 16 MWH of electricity, worth around
$1.2 megabucks. And they paid $2.8M for equipment and $1.7M for fuel.

Don't leave out the $1 megabuck worth of heat. This was a co-generation
facility.

And from a looks of things they are counting the electricity at a
substantial discount compared to their neighbours. See tables 2 and 3.

From the original description I thought this was a SOFC cogeneration
facility which would appear to be a natural given the high operating
temperatures of SOFCs but appears to be PEM plus reformer.

Interestingly they claim they are paying more for fuel than their
neighbours. Maybe they locked in at a high rate?

Robert

 

[Eeyore]

C'mon graham, he did better than most. he posted an interesting
anecdote and was not in any way arrogant or rude about any part of
it. don't let guth and sparky wear you into thinking that all the
posters here are such losers, some just are a little new to the format
of discussions here. errors are not crimes.

You're not aware of Jamie's 'history'. He regularly posts utter nonsense in the
electronics groups and gets very arrogant when corrected.

Yet more of the same here.

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:

39:36 -0700, bill wrote:
[about LOX, H2O2, etc.]
...
I don't know if such a thing would really work, or what
its
effects on an engine would be, but its a kinda cool idea. I
might make tinkering with it a winter project.

You'll never get back the energy it took to liquefy the O2.

Nothing is going to ignite until it is gas; that's what the
intake and compression strokes are for.

Filling a TDC cylinder with liquid fuel and liquid O2, I bet they'd
ignite real good, if the LOX doesn't freeze the fuel; you might
need a lot of energy to make a spark through it, however.

Liquids don't ignite.

If you are so very sure about, that i suggest that you try mixing
unsymmetrical di-methyl hydrazine (UDMH) and red fuming nitric acid
(RFNA) (glacial). Take very serious precautions and read the
relevant MSDS before making the attempt.

Do you understand the difference between combustion and a chemical
reaction?

I thought not.

 

[John Larkin]

Proudly displays his ignorance and hatred of everyone in the
universe, like any troll should.

Yeah, but I wonder if he's actually ever built anything useful, that
actually works.

John

 

[BradGuth]

You guys are funny, near us, we have a gambling casino, "Mohegan Sun"
They have and have had for at least 4 years now that I know of
3 Fuel cell generator complexes. These units operate the main facility
100% with plenty of reserve. They obviously are self sufficient because
all they ever need to do is replace mechanical things that wear out,
which is normal in any generating facility.

When they were getting ready to installed them, the energy businesses
that supply our state tried very hard to find ways to prevent them from
building the units. Because it's a reservation, they found there wasn't
much they could do about it. So the only recourse they had was tried to
push the pollution restrictions on them in hopes they wouldn't build
them how ever, after test were done, they found that with all 3 units
operating, the CO2 output was less than a single car on the average. So
what they did was import some tree's that likes this environment and
the end results is. The air in that area is cleaner than most in our state.

Currently, CLP (connecticut Light & Power) is building beside a school
and most likely else where. Water powered generating plant. The deal was
to let then build one there and thus the school gets it's power for
free. I forgot what they said the generator will put out, but it's a lot
and will be supplying many homes in that area.

So. there you go.

--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Very good, now imagine if those units were running on William Mook's
efficiently obtained H2, as there be zilch worth of CO2. In fact,
you'd have to artificially introduce CO2 so that those trees would
have what they need.

Our resident usenet naysayers and always in total denial are in deed
funny as hell, as well as usually Yids to boot.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

BradGuthwrote:


There is no 'spare energy' nor is there ever likely to be. Simple economics will
prevent it.

You mean that Yids and others of your kind will prevent it. Trust me,
we understand.

BTW, why don't you not like anything William Mook has to say?
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

ha, most likely from those that work there.
you know, mechanics, electricians etc..


We don't get a lot of sun up this way (New England). And as I said
before. they have trees all around the place. there are no form of
solar energy collections system there.


I have no idea, all I know is, they operate the facility (all
buildings) with these generators 24/7.

The only location that is not operating with these generators is
the gas station and store the tribe has which sits just out side the
grounds of the casino. They run on commercial power and are backed up
via their generators if needed. And as for the Casino area. there is
one building that has commercial back up which is where the bank and
things like that are. As far as I know, they have never had to use the
commercial power since they put these units in operation. I remember a
couple of years ago when there was a bad storm that knocked out service
in that area for a long time. There was a near by medical facility that
they supplied power to until that following weekend where they could
safely switch back over to commercial again.. I think that was a nice
thing for them to do.

P.S.
There is a river just behind the place. I think they treat that water
for drinking and what ever else.
Like I said, the Casino is self sufficient.

The other casino not to far from it "Fox Woods" does not use fuel cell
generators. They're using diesel for the generators and I do understand
that they are interested in going into fuel cells if they haven't already.

The silly Yids and rusemasters of this anti-think-tank of their naysay
usenet from hell on Earth don't like independent energy of any kind,
especially if it's clean and reliable. Fuel cell generators that
operate on natural gas are a little more spendy than the national grid
average, but in some locations that grid provided energy is extremely
spendy, so much so ENRON pumped spendy that those fuel cell
alternatives are in fact more energy efficient, especially since most
all of the process/surplus heat is fully utilized, so that nothing
much is going to waste.

Don't forget what these ENRON types charge for their power lines
getting such grid energy to a given end-user, is often in of it self
more spendy than directly buying, installing and sustaining those
clean running fuel cells. And, whenever the grid goes down, those
nifty fuel cells are still doing their clean reliable thing of
providing local energy.
- Brad Guth -

 

[John Larkin]

You mean that Yids and others of your kind will prevent it. Trust me,
we understand.

It's remarkable how little you do understand.

It's easy to imagine things when you are unencumbered by numbers.

And what's this "Yid" obsession about? That makes as little sense as
the rest of your ravings.

John

 

[Richard Henry]

That's interesting.

In 4.5 years, they generated about 16 MWH of electricity, worth around
$1.2 megabucks. And they paid $2.8M for equipment and $1.7M for fuel.

It looks like there was a lot of maintanance costs, too.

Here is a more complete quote from the tribe's Jan 2007 report on the
project:

"The fuel cells proved to be very reliable by being available more
than 97 percent of the
time as shown in Table 1. The efficiency was very high, in the 85-90%
range because of
the full utilization of the heat in the application. To date
(12/31/2006), the value of the
electricity produced by the fuel cells is $1,247,324 as reported in
Table 2. The exhaust
heat generated during this period of time is 79,896 MMBtu and was used
for thermal
needs of the facilities as explained later. This accounted for an
additional $1,022,463 in
savings over this period of operation. Fuel cells operating on natural
gas are classified as
a Class I Renewable Energy source in Connecticut and therefore are
eligible for
Renewable Energy Credits (REC's) that are an additional source of
revenue generation
for the project. To date, Mohegan Sun has received about $276,810 in
REC's payments.
The cost of the fuel cells (equipment, installation, and maintenance)
was $2,848,360."

http://www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

Note that the fuel cell system was not installed to generate a profit,
but to offset the impact on the evironment by the casino due to things
like increased vehicle traffic. Even so, the tribe claims "cost
savings" of over $450,000 dollars in the fitst 5 years of operation
(see table 2 on page 5 of the report) and "operational savings" (which
ignores the installation costs)of over $2,000,000 (table 3, page 6).

 

[John Larkin]

Here is a more complete quote from the tribe's Jan 2007 report on the
project:

"The fuel cells proved to be very reliable by being available more
than 97 percent of the
time as shown in Table 1. The efficiency was very high, in the 85-90%
range because of
the full utilization of the heat in the application. To date
(12/31/2006), the value of the
electricity produced by the fuel cells is $1,247,324 as reported in
Table 2. The exhaust
heat generated during this period of time is 79,896 MMBtu and was used
for thermal
needs of the facilities as explained later. This accounted for an
additional $1,022,463 in
savings over this period of operation. Fuel cells operating on natural
gas are classified as
a Class I Renewable Energy source in Connecticut and therefore are
eligible for
Renewable Energy Credits (REC's) that are an additional source of
revenue generation
for the project. To date, Mohegan Sun has received about $276,810 in
REC's payments.
The cost of the fuel cells (equipment, installation, and maintenance)
was $2,848,360."

http://www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

Note that the fuel cell system was not installed to generate a profit,
but to offset the impact on the evironment by the casino due to things
like increased vehicle traffic. Even so, the tribe claims "cost
savings" of over $450,000 dollars in the fitst 5 years of operation
(see table 2 on page 5 of the report) and "operational savings" (which
ignores the installation costs)of over $2,000,000 (table 3, page 6).

Cool. Get subsidies, ignore installation costs, don't document
maintanance costs, and keep your full-power utility connection for the
times that the fuel cells are down.

That makes sense?

John

 

[Charlie Edmondson]

we understand.

BTW, why don't you not like anything William Mook has to say?
- Brad Guth -

Hey Braddie,
We LIKE what Bill has to say. He is an engineer, and often asks
pertinent, engineering questions on this forum (SED) that provoke
interesting discussions. He has also done MATH on his proposals, and
admits that some of them are a little over the top, but we respect his
ideas even as we critique them!

It is a whole different idea between "I don't think it will work." and
"What color is the sky on your planet?" ;-)

Charlie

 

[Rich Grise]

Most of the fuel vaporization takes place during the intake stroke.

The compression stroke is to get the piston back to the top so the
ignition has something usefull to do.

Squirting LOX into a cylinder will tend to cool everything off
rather quickly, and perhaps too quickly.

Or maybe:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_Times/September_95/2.5HowTo.html

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Richard Henry]

Cool. Get subsidies, ignore installation costs, don't document
maintanance costs, and keep your full-power utility connection for the
times that the fuel cells are down.

That makes sense?

The "cost savings" number includes instzllation costs.

What info do you have on "don't document maintenance costs"?

 

[Rich Grise]

Most of the fuel vaporization takes place during the intake stroke.

The compression stroke is to get the piston back to the top so the
ignition has something usefull to do.

Squirting LOX into a cylinder will tend to cool everything off
rather quickly, and perhaps too quickly.

This one's better:

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

Do you understand the difference between combustion and a chemical
reaction?

Then, please educate us. What, exactly, is the difference between
"combustion" and "a chemical reaction"?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

7 cents a watt would be wonderful, but it's about 30:1 away from what
anybody is doing, even at the research level. And if we had such
power, the first rational use is to dump it into the grid, not convert
it to hydrogen at absurd net efficiency.

Low cost solar would be great, but there's no particular link to
hydrogen. Too many "advanced" energy concepts are predicated on
ultra-cheap solar power, cheap enough to waste prodigiously. That
ain't gonna happen.

Anybody remember when they first started using nuclear, and electricity
was going to be virtually free?

I guess that one didn't pan out either. )-;

Thanks,
Rich

 

[BradGuth]

Clearly totally untrue as they use natural gas.www.mohegan.nsn.us/docs/Mohegan_Sun_Report_Final.pdf

As ever you simply can't get anything right.

My goodness, are we having another bad fuckology day, or what?

Any more naysayism and you'd turn yourself into another black hole,
like many other silly Yids of your kind that suck and blow.

BTW, at least their natural gas is somewhat dirt cheap and a whole lot
cleaner than any of your coal, h2o and N2 fired alternatives, and it's
not even radioactive for tens of thousands of years after the fact.

Say again why you so hate humanity and don't give a flying puck about
our environment. (isn't it that pesky Hitler cloning thing again?)
- Brad Guth -