The Electric Car

You need to talk to someone like ABB.

I have! And I must say their transformers are one of the engineering
points we used in our estimates of costs of building large scale solar
panel arrays tied dirextly to the power grid.

Lets make a distinction between AC/DC intertie used by Asea Boveri and
Brown in their HVDC lines, which operate at farily continuous power
transmission with slight variations over many days, varsus tying
together huge arrays of solar panels that vary from 0 to 100% output
in less than an hour.

These have similarities certainly, but also substantial differences.
When you sit down and actually start to build that system, you find
costs, at least the first time through, escalating. I stand by my $2
per peak watt for the first 5 GW of installed systems. I will say
that by the time the first 1,000 GW are installed, prices might be
down to $0.70 -

Note, I'm not arguing that direct intertie isn't efficient. It is
hugely efficient. I'm arguing its not the path toward initial
development of large-scale solar power.
Very high if I can readily find grid-tied inverters on sale today at the 3kW
level for < $1 a watt.

Sit down and read a book or two on building power grids. Even if you
get say 4% of your ENERGY from sunlight, you'll be getting at peak
output 30% of your power. That's a hole different ball of wax to
supply 30% of an entire grid - stably reliably - with highly variable
solar power.

Put differently, a designer of a 3 kW system attached to a grid
supplied by a 3,300 MW power plant, doesn't have to worry about 1/10th
of the things as a designer of a 1,000 MW solar panel array attached
to the same grid. All those costs of the larger system are properly
assigned to the intertie.
You still have the problem of storing energy outside of the 'solar hours' of
course.

Well, to be generous I didn't even get into that! haha.. But yes,
this does add substantial cost. However, since energy storage systems
can double as sources or sinks, a clever designer can use an
inexpensive storage system to lower some of the costs - which is the
direction I'm going in with my approach long-term
 
Grid tied inverters here at retail for under $1 a Watt. Around 95% efficiency
too.http://www.grid-tie.com/Xantrex-GT-Inverters.html

Those systems are kilowatt level or less. Imagine a local grid
supported by 3,300 MW of conventional power plants. Add a 1 kW solar
panel to it. The person designing the solar panel and attaching it to
the power grid, doesn't really have much to consider

Now, lets assume this is a place like Pennsylvania where due to
weather you can't get more than about 4% of your energy from sunlight
if its tied to the grid. That means that about 40% of your power will
be coming from sunlight on the sunniest days. (we're not assuming
storage, just direct intertie which is highly efficient) The intertie
designer has a lot more to consider in maintaining grid stability -
especially if his peaking plants take minutes or more to respond, and
only account for less than 40% of your power. And this is only one
diseconomy of scale. There are others.
I'd expect larger capacity units to be less expensive and it seems pretty clear
to me that as a very large customer you would be paying no more perhaps than
30-40c a watt

Sure, if all you were doing is installing the same intertie a million
times to 1 kW generators, but at some point you start actually
producing enough to affect more than your power meter. At some point
you start actually changing the load of the entire grid to such an
extent that you have to account for changing lighting conditions
throughout the day due to weather and time of day. Since these
conditions can change in seconds and affect huge amounts of power
generation, they have to be accounted for in the intertie system - and
paid for as intertie costs.

My approach is to focus on cost and make hydrogen the ultimate
intertie, and as long as I sell heating value at less cost than it
costs to buy it from carbon sources, I've beat the carbon sources at
their own game, I'm making a profit, and I'm well situated to dominate
the market, not merely make tiny inroads to it.
It seems YOU are the one with prejudices here actually.

That might hold water if I hadn't spent something like $400,000
studying direct intertie and had a team spend months looking at it and
pulling their hari out. Efficiency was only ONE of MANY criterion - a
more important one being profitability, and market dominance. When
you start looking at doing everything with solar, you quickly come
upon some diseconomies of scale that you need to address. Then once
you've addressed them, you then choose, what's the quickest, least
risky, path to dominance. And the answer is, hydrogen.

There are other paths - in fact there is a path I call Genesis
planet. You put an array of solar collectors in the sunnieset areas,
and you build HVDC lines to connect them all to load centers - cities,
towns and so forth. Each person has a demand curve for energy that
they go through each day, and that is modulated throughout the year
with season. This is a function of time, longitude and latitude.
So, you can take population distribution and plug in this demand
function with time for that population and get demand for the planet
consuming power as an average US citizen say. Then, you take all the
insolation data, combine that with your panel costs, land costs (which
goes down the further you get from population centers! haha), and
transmission costs - and you can calculate an optimal array of
networked panels and intertie that exactly meets the needs of the
planet. Excepting to meet the needs without any brownouts, you need
to have oversupply at certain times. What do you do with the
oversupply? Short it out, or shut it down. You can make fertilizer
with it. You can make hydrogen with it.

Then the question becomes, what do you do with the hydrogen? Remember
this is Genesis planet, everything is solar - tied to panels. Even
the cars tied to the solar grid - like slot cars, or electric trains,
or trams or magnetic coupling.

So, even Genesis planet isn't as efficient as the physics suggest,
because when you install the panels and grid and switches onto the
real Earth with the real population here - you end up shorting out
about 30% of your produciton. Which doesn't effect cost that much,but
is sure as hell is a lot of waste! Then, if you look at actual losses
in long distance HVDC lines - the idea of using hydrogen as the medium
(the famous (in our offices) solar proton and solar electron debate!
haha)

So, yeah, we looked at a lot of things - very seriously - and hired
the best and brightest to do it. The detailed results are
proprietary. But our game plan is clear.

Especially when you go beyond just the distribution of people and
sunlight and start to factor in the availability of other energy
systems, the possiblity of growth, and so forth - and you find that
there is a least risky, least costly path - which unfortunately
relegates home panels to second or third teir status in the developed
economies, and first or second tier status in developing countries,
depending on where they are. But in terms of market dominance,
developing countries isn't where the money is, or where the energy is
used. Its needed, but not used.

So, the game plan is clear. Dominate the hydrocarbon fuel production
with solar assisted hydrogenation of low rank low value fuels. With
those profits create an integrated oil company from a collection of
remarketers and appropriately located coal mines. Then use the
hydrogen distribution system that supports this operation to fuel
stationary power plants, taking stranded fuel in trade. Then, use the
hydrogen distirubtion system along with your retailing operation to
sell hydrogen directly to mobile users.

Meanwhile, with 60 GW a year production,rising to 1,400 GW per year in
a few decades, 2 GW per year rising to 160 GW per year of solar panels
will be sold for remote applications, mostly in developing regions.
Also, an increasing number of panels at central locations will be
shipping electrons instead of protons into a national and then
international HVDC power grid - supplying up to 20% of all our energy
needs in the best case - in the most developed nations.and another 4%
of our energy in these same places will be in homes offices and
factories that are off grid altogether.
 
M

Martin Brown

Jan 1, 1970
0
Hogwash. In 90 seconds of research, you can discover that UPS systems
- charger, batteries, inverter, enclosure, line cord, LED dislays -
are going for 10 to 15 cents per watt RETAIL.

Utilities have been shipping interstate power using DC for decades.
It's worth it to them to convert from AC to DC, transport the power,
and convert back to AC on the other end. Worth it on thr basis of
efficiency, at acceptable capital expense.

How so? I thought the fundamental limitation of DC was that it was
harder to transport over long distances (even at 500kV which is what I
think the big DC interconnects use).

I know they do HV DC mains grid interlink in Japan, but that is
because the country has 50Hz and 60Hz power grids in different parts
of the country. Why do US utilities do DC interlink on a single
frequency?

The size of the USA compared to the wavelength of 60Hz is not
negligible, but it doesn't seem excessive either.
You're cooking the numbers to push the hydrogen thing. If you actually
has solar power at 1/5 cents per kwh, there would be no reason to not
sell it to the grid.

Indeed. And there is an obvious conclusion.
It means that sunlight is a very low-density power source. And always
will be.

There have been a few impressive solar concentrators. Largely for
smelting exotic materials research and the odd one can do superheated
steam generation too.

But given the expense of refined silicon for high efficiency solar
panels it seems worthwhile to at least double the incident solar flux
onto them by using mirrors. It makes the wind loading worse of course.
But mirrors are cheap and solar panels expensive (even more so when
you have to worry about keeping them weatherproof).

If someone can make plastic semiconductor based photovoltaic cells
that are chemically stable under sunlight then the economics could
shift, but for the moment solar power is best at doing hot water
supply for suitably low latitudes (and total waste of time at 55N
where I live).

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
G

Glen Walpert

Jan 1, 1970
0
Their efficiencies are far less than unity, and this is but one step
in the inversion peak power matching process and then synchronizing
with the AC grid in such a way as to contribute that power
efficiently.

There are around 7 manufacturers who now sell peak power matching
solar panel inverters approved for grid connection, per a system
installer I know. Full power efficiencies are all well over 90%, and
the prices all run around 50 cents a watt for the sizes which are most
commonly used (4 or 5 kW).

A big piece of the higher than 25 cent/watt cost is probably the rated
line disconnect means, which must of course disconnect reliably under
overload, short circuit or reverse power (line to inverter)
conditions, and that capability tested by an approved rating agency.
The rest (mabey most) of the cost difference is due to still
relatively low volumes. Automatic paralleling with the line is of
course trivial, adding almost nothing to the cost - a bit of extra
code to synchronize, voltage match and issue the close contactor
command.

BTW, typical costs for installed 4 of 5 kW (at 25 deg C ambient) grid
connected home solar systems in CA are now running between $9.00 and
$9.50 per peak watt. Basic panel ratings are at 25 deg C junction
temperature, and since black panels in full sun get quite hot they
need to be derated for operating temp, somewhere around 15% IIRC,
exact value to be found in the fine print on the data sheet of course.
A bit more panel is also added for inverter loss, so the customer gets
the rated peak power actually delivered to the grid.

These costs do not need to come down very much to be economical when
standard economic analysis of the present value of future payments is
done for the 30 year life expectancy of the system, considering that
increases in the cost of electricity are not likely to lag inflation.
$7.00 per installed peak watt is probably attainable in the near
future. $.07 per peak watt is a misplaced decimal point.
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
How so? I thought the fundamental limitation of DC was that it was
harder to transport over long distances (even at 500kV which is what I
think the big DC interconnects use).

I know they do HV DC mains grid interlink in Japan, but that is
because the country has 50Hz and 60Hz power grids in different parts
of the country. Why do US utilities do DC interlink on a single
frequency?

The size of the USA compared to the wavelength of 60Hz is not
negligible, but it doesn't seem excessive either.


Google and learn.

John
 
In sci.physics JosephKK said:
[email protected] [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:
In sci.physics JosephKK said:
[email protected] [email protected] posted to
sci.electronics.design:
39:36 -0700, bill wrote:
[about LOX, H2O2, etc.]
...
I don't know if such a thing would really work, or
what its
effects on an engine would be, but its a kinda cool idea.
I might make tinkering with it a winter project.

You'll never get back the energy it took to liquefy the O2.

Nothing is going to ignite until it is gas; that's what the
intake and compression strokes are for.

Filling a TDC cylinder with liquid fuel and liquid O2, I bet
they'd ignite real good, if the LOX doesn't freeze the fuel; you
might need a lot of energy to make a spark through it, however.

Liquids don't ignite.
If you are so very sure about, that i suggest that you try mixing
unsymmetrical di-methyl hydrazine (UDMH) and red fuming nitric acid
(RFNA) (glacial). Take very serious precautions and read the
relevant MSDS before making the attempt.

Do you understand the difference between combustion and a chemical
reaction?

I thought not.
How about you lookup hypergolic reactions? TWIT! You were given
sufficient to learn better for yourself, but no you just attack.

Please list any land vehicles whose internal combustion engines run
on hypergolic reactions.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
The audience ranges from drooling, raving lunatics to Phd's with
everything in between.

What would you call it?

sci.electronics.design? ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
.
Approximately half the volume of a crystalline wafer is lost during
the slicing operation.
....

Whatever happened to "edge-defined film growth"? That's where they
pull a flat ribbon of silicon from the melt, and then just use
it "sideways".

Obviously, it's unfeasible for one reason or another - anybody
know those reasons?

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote:
John, I neglected to leave out the type of fuel cell generator just to
lure someone in on this conversation and it did work. :)

Actually, from what I was told. They save money compared to what it
would cost if they had to heat the water, facility and generate
electricity separately. And I guess the savings are very
large in that respect.

Hasn't anyone ever taught you guys to snip?

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
BradGuth [email protected] posted to sci.electronics.design:


So where are your products? You allege _you_ have built them and that
they work. Where are they? Many of us would like to test them to
verify your claims. Your extraordinary claims require extraordinary
backup, as you have been told before.
Otherwise, see "your problem is obvious".


Brad and Willie both appear to be usenet frauds, amateur schemers and
impostors. This syndrome is surprisingly common.

And their nonsense is off-topic in s.e.d. They should go somewhere
more sympathetic to their dreams and less critical of their numbers.

If I'm wrong, they can post links to their accomplishments. Things of
the scale they claim, can't be kept private.

John
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
I give you refrigerator magnets, and that's the thanks I get.

Hey, I'm only trying to help. I'm a little O/C about spelling. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
Nah, we all have spiffy things called "scroll bars."

I even have a wheel mouse for that. But it's a little tedious to scroll
through three pages of old crap to read about three words of followup.

Did you know that if you hold down the "Ctrl" key while twirling your
mouse wheel, it zooms the text size in your browser?

Cheers!
Rich
 
T

TheM

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin said:
Cool. Get subsidies, ignore installation costs, don't document
maintanance costs, and keep your full-power utility connection for the
times that the fuel cells are down.

That makes sense?

John


Too bad mother Earth doesn't care about subsidies, tree-huggers tend to forget that.

M
 
R

Rich Grise

Jan 1, 1970
0
And I can't type. We have a problem here, Houston.

Like the gal applying for the secretary job? The boss asks how fast
she can type, she says, "Oh, about 5 words a minute"
The boss says, "Are you just a hunt-n-peck'er?"
She says, "No, I really need the job."
--- Playboy's Party Jokes, ca 1970's

Cheers!
Rich
 
Top