[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson

They are workaholics, sex addicts, or have other obsessions.

.... such as s.e.d. And whaddya mean, 'or'??

 

[Roger Johansson]

... such as s.e.d. And whaddya mean, 'or'??

Without an explicit qualifier "or" is assumed to mean a non-exclusive
OR function. So don't worry, I have you covered.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

There is an even bigger problem buried here. (behind the official war on
drugs)

We live in a culture which is strongly against lazyness and against taking
things lightly.

There are strong moral traditions about working hard, being very serious,
and living in the fear of God, whatever that means

The creationist culture is using social repression and manipulation to
uphold the old traditions, the holy matrimony, the eternal love, the holy
spirit and the holy wrath, gender roles, mobbing, violence, fear, strong
convictions, etc..

This systems requires a lot of training of the mind, creating strong will
power, social dominance, and stiff minds.


http://humanist.250free.com/

What you've said is very close to what's actually been going on, but it's
difficult to present the whole story because of how deeply imprinted the
original imprints are.
http://www.godchannel.com/grandfather.html

Love,
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

Blimey !

I thought you guys were pretty laid back in Denmark. What a guilt trip ! I
must have been mistaken.

Pooh, don't be such a dingnuts. The guilt trip is what got erroneously put
into place as a replacement for Love, and we've been saddled with the
wrong god ever since.

The point is to let the guilt simply cease to exist, by refraining from
holding it in place with its concomitant judgments and denials.
http://www.godchannel.com/sacrifice.html

Love,
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Roger Johansson]

What you've said is very close to what's actually been going on, but
it's difficult to present the whole story because of how deeply
imprinted the original imprints are.

Exactly. It takes 15 minutes to explain it all, but it usually takes
years to break through the individual defence mechanisms, trained
ideology and pure stupidity which prevent people from understanding it.

They also bounce back in a scary way, probably after getting a new
dosis of female conviction.

It is easier with very intelligent people who spend a lifetime learning
new concepts, like doctors.

http://www.godchannel.com/grandfather.html

Yes, I found that site interesting too, and funny, but I prefer clear
language to symbolism.

You need a pretty excited brain to understand symbolism.
Clear language requires no effort.


The truth will make us free

 

[Pooh Bear]

The truth will make us free

Fine but whose version of the truth do you plan to use ?


Graham

 

[Ban]

Exactly. It takes 15 minutes to explain it all, but it usually takes
years to break through the individual defence mechanisms, trained
ideology and pure stupidity which prevent people from understanding
it.

They also bounce back in a scary way, probably after getting a new
dosis of female conviction.

It is easier with very intelligent people who spend a lifetime
learning new concepts, like doctors.


Yes, I found that site interesting too, and funny, but I prefer clear
language to symbolism.

You need a pretty excited brain to understand symbolism.
Clear language requires no effort.


The truth will make us free

Roger, you are a philosopher. You must be looking like the famous "Thinker"
by Rodin. The head utterly heavy, supported by the arm, he has become one
with the rock he's sitting on. You are repeating parrot-like what others
have written: Buddha, Osho, Gurdjeff.
Hey, this is not intelligence, this is being a Pharisee. And those were so
caught up in their knowledge, they missed the enlightened man, Jesus. Worse,
they even cruzified him.

Your mind is heavy enough, try to be light instead. Dance, sing, celebrate.
Enjoy existence. Be again like a child, playful.

 

[Roger Johansson]

Fine but whose version of the truth do you plan to use ?

Since there is no objective truth in the modern world, after the
theology and their idea of god-given absolute thruths were thrown out
of science and philosophy, we can only discuss and compare our
subjective truths, and come to agreement on what we think.

This process works well in fields were most participators in the
process are telling the truth, as well as they can, like in physics,
electronics etc..

In the social field it gets more complicated, as we live in a culture
based on secrets, lies symbolism and misunderstandings.

The grown-ups have secrets for the children, the elders have secrets
for the less advanced in social manipulation, a lot of secret
manipulation is used to make little girls grow up to women, a lot of
violence is used to initiate boys to become men, secret social
processes are used to create the eternal love and the holy matrimony,
etc..

We can only solve the social and psychological problems of mankind if
we start talking openly about these things, in clear language.

What do you know about these things?
What has happened to you in this field in your life?

A year ago I saw on german television a news item about what had
happened in a school in Poland.
A sequence from a video taken from a classroom. Young boys harassing
and threatening a teacher.

The video was shown on national television, and a reporter came to the
school, interviewed one of the boys.

"But.. That is what we always do when they don't defend themselves.."
he explained, like it was the right thing to do, what he had learned
from the other boys..

Then he shut up and looked insecure, he realized that what he just said
was not the official rule, not in accordance with the laws in Poland,
so he got confused.

Youngsters live a complicated life, torn between the official world and
its rules about being nice to people, and the inofficial world of rules
they have been taught by other people in the social field, rules which
define who to harass and why.

The inofficial system are traditions inherited from the stone age,
still alive in the social field.
The official system is the modern world, the laws and rules based on
individual freedom, equality between men and women, democracy instead
of theocratic dictatorship, mobbing and eternal love.

What do you know about these things, what secrets can you reveal, how
can you help to clear up this intellectual confusion which is the
result of thousands of years of creationism?

I'm waiting. You can start telling the truth, your truth, anytime you
feel
you are ready. When did you stop being a child, and why?

Did you ever have to make up your mind?

"Did you ever have to make up your mind
Pick up on one and leave the other behind
It's not often easy and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind
{Refrain 2}
Did you ever have to finally decide
Say yes to one and let the other one ride
There's so many changes and tears you must hide
Did you ever have to finally decide.."
(John Sebastian, Lovin Spoonful)

 

[Roger Johansson]

they missed the enlightened man, Jesus. Worse,
they even cruzified him.

You are so right about that. Jesus tried to abolish the church, but the
church was a lot stronger than he could understand. They cruzified him,
and made up stories about him which made it possible to incorporate him
into the church ideolology. His own words is one thing, what others
said about him is another thing.

Your mind is heavy enough, try to be light instead. Dance, sing,
celebrate. Enjoy existence. Be again like a child, playful.

Have you really tried that idea in social life?

I have, and was badly mistreated for being too naive. For being too
simple and natural. For not being determined enough.
For not playing the social game correctly.

Lightheatedness is not taken well. The social life demands that you
know a lot and behave according to certain rules.

Maybe you were born rich, and have lived a sheltered and manipulated
life so you do not know how rough life really is in the social field?

My father didn't like the society, so we lived in the forest and I grew
up in peace of mind as a child.

It was a shock for me when I started school, because the other boys
wanted to punch me in my face and wrestle with me, which was probably
the natural way to play for them. They had been trained in using rough
ways.

When I was 15 we had to move into town, into an apartment.
The first day we heard loud thumping noises from the neighbor above, he
was a weight-lifter and he was training.

My father went into the kitchen with my mother for an hour, then walked
through the hall carrying two bottles of beer, and he went up to visit
our neighbor.

He was up there for half an hour and came back.

We never heard any sound from above again, not a single sound for the
two years we lived there.

I have had problems with neighbors myself, so I have of course thought
about that event, wondering what my father said or did to get rid of the
problem so effectively.

I see that weightlifter guy every time I go to the food store. He is
always out on town, and still looks like a weightlifter.

Last time I saw him he tried to look weak and small. I ignored him as
usual. I don't care what he looks like, I only care about what he does.
I just think what a lucky man he is. We have laws in this country.

I don't like that he forced my father to do something he did not want
to do, something he had lived in the forest for many years to avoid.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson
<[email protected]>) about 'OT: Thread Hijack:
Drugs vs. War - was: Re: Twilight for the fishes, we say goodby to our
great Clown Loach.', on Fri, 8 Apr 2005:

Since there is no objective truth in the modern world,

This is like the 'We are all guilty.' thing. Of course there are
objective truths. 100 cents make a dollar and 100 other cents make a
Euro.

But there are all sorts of questions to which there CANNOT BE an
'objectively true' answer, so there is no point in agonizing over the
search for one. Start from 'Who was the best classical composer?'

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

Fine but whose version of the truth do you plan to use ?

I'm using this one:
http://www.godchannel.com/reality.html

 

[Paul Burke]

Start from 'Who was the best classical composer?'

CPE Bach. Next question.

 

[Roger Johansson]

I'm using this one:
http://www.godchannel.com/reality.html

Okay, fine, but that is a web page filled with ideology you obviously
have chosen to believe in. It is filled with terms which can mean
different things to different people.

It is not your personal experiences and the story of your life. It is
not the story of how your mind has evolved during your life.

It is not the truth about how you have interacted socially and become
influenced during your life, and what conclusions and decisions you
have made, how you became who you are today.

 

[John Woodgate]

(in <[email protected]>) about 'OT: Thread Hijack: Drugs
vs. War - was: Re: Twilight for the fishes, we say goodby to our great
Clown Loach.', on Fri, 8 Apr 2005:

CPE Bach. Next question.

You have a mathematical proof? If not, it's not an objective truth.

 

[Jim Thompson]

CPE Bach. Next question.

Naaaah! Tie between Mozart and JS Bach!

...Jim Thompson

 

[John Fields]

Okay, fine, but that is a web page filled with ideology you obviously
have chosen to believe in. It is filled with terms which can mean
different things to different people.

---
And what you write isn't? From the anecdote you related about your
father and the upstairs neighbor, and the rest of your rants, the
picture I get of you is that of an embittered soul weighed down with
beliefs and opinions which you seem to consider absolute and are
dismayed that the rest of the world doesn't. YMMV.

 

[Roger Johansson]

So what?

If we are to understand how the social world works, and how old
traditions are forming us, causing a lot of problems for mankind, we
cannot just find justification for what we are today and for our
current lifestyle. We have to compare our individual experiences and
our mental development, finding out why we have become what we are, why
some people become alcoholics, wife beaters, serial killers, happy
married men, unhappy 14 year old girls running away from home, angry
young men who beat up others in the street, etc.,

It's a reflection of where his personal experiences have led
him

But he doesn't describe how he got there, what personal experiences led
him to draw what conclusions and make what decisions along the way.

He is just describing the ideology he needs today, and that doesn't
explain much about why he wants/needs that ideology today. It does not
help us understand how he and his social environment work and how it
forms and shapes people's minds.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

If we are to understand how the social world works, and how old traditions
are forming us, causing a lot of problems for mankind, we cannot just find
justification for what we are today and for our current lifestyle. We have
to compare our individual experiences and our mental development, finding
out why we have become what we are, why some people become alcoholics,
wife beaters, serial killers, happy married men, unhappy 14 year old girls
running away from home, angry young men who beat up others in the street,
etc.,

And when you learn to understand what's presented at that website, plus
possibly other sources, it explains all of that stuff, and what we need to
do to fix it.

But he doesn't describe how he got there, what personal experiences led
him to draw what conclusions and make what decisions along the way.

No, but I am considering putting up a blog of some kind so people could
read about me if they want to, rather than telling my life story in
newsgroup posts. ;-)

He is just describing the ideology he needs today, and that doesn't
explain much about why he wants/needs that ideology today. It does not
help us understand how he and his social environment work and how it forms
and shapes people's minds.

Yeah. They say "experience is the best teacher" and all that - I do have
some interesting experiences, but it'd be hard to present the context
of what I've personally gleaned and where I get my crazy ideas, without
it sounding like a big whine. ;-)

Here's what I want:
"The Mother's dream is that all beings in Creation experience their true
grandeur and greatness. And in their greatness, do whatever they desire.
The Mother's deepest desire is that you and everyone else in Our Creation
be completely free and empowered to do whatever you want, go wherever you
wish and be with whomever you choose.

"At first your mind will have difficulty understanding how this could be
possible, but We can assure you it is not only possible, but necessary.
Free Will, completely free and joyous in the presence of unwavering
loving Light is the truly natural way in our Creation. And this Creation
is the basis of your own Creation and the full manifestation of your
greatness."
- from http://www.godchannel.com/folksinterview.html

 

[John Fields]

If we are to understand how the social world works, and how old
traditions are forming us, causing a lot of problems for mankind, we
cannot just find justification for what we are today and for our
current lifestyle. We have to compare our individual experiences and
our mental development, finding out why we have become what we are, why
some people become alcoholics, wife beaters, serial killers, happy
married men, unhappy 14 year old girls running away from home, angry
young men who beat up others in the street, etc.,

---
As much as you'd like to believe that it's the "old traditions" which
are causing the problems, I can counter with that it's the crumbling
of the old traditions that's causing them. Take away the stability of
the framework which children experience in a traditional, nurturing,
home environment and you wind up with amoral animals bent on little
but satisfying their own whims and having no way to gauge the
consequences of their actions. Like you. Although its out of your
purview, you denigrate as worthless a committment between a man and a
woman to bring children into the world to further _their_ views. And
you? From what you've written so far I daresay your couplings have
been for the purpose of satisfying momentary urges and the unwanted
consequences of those unions were dealt with at the expense of your
would-be progeny.
---

But he doesn't describe how he got there, what personal experiences led
him to draw what conclusions and make what decisions along the way.

---
Why should he? As far as I know he owes you nothing and he's not in
public therapy here.

Seems like _you_ want to be, though...
---

He is just describing the ideology he needs today, and that doesn't
explain much about why he wants/needs that ideology today. It does not
help us understand how he and his social environment work and how it
forms and shapes people's minds.

---
You seem to think that just asking for ammunition will get you the
information you need to vanquish your critics.

You haven't yet demonstrated that you're worthy of receiving that
data.

Ignoring that, the question is why you feel the need to be at odds
with your critics.

Oh, yeah, survival. I forgot about that...

 

[Roger Johansson]

And when you learn to understand what's presented at that website,

If I need to learn something to understand something which is presented
in a language which is not clear and concrete I wonder if I am in a
church of some kind.

plus possibly other sources, it explains all of that stuff, and what
we need to do to fix it.

I see no concrete suggestions in clear language about changing the real
world. No clear language analysis of how the social processes work or
what traditions these processes are based on.

No, but I am considering putting up a blog of some kind so people
could read about me if they want to, rather than telling my life
story in newsgroup posts. ;-)

Newsgroup texts are preserved forever, blogs disappear as soon as your
account is ended. You can avoid critical comments completely in a blog,
not in a newsgroup. Maybe these differencies sound positive to you ;-)

For an open and rational discussion newsgroups are much better.
alt.society.futures is my favorite, low activity and discussions like
these fit the newsgroup name.

Yeah. They say "experience is the best teacher" and all that - I do
have some interesting experiences, but it'd be hard to present the
context of what I've personally gleaned and where I get my crazy
ideas, without it sounding like a big whine. ;-)

Wise people have sounded like whiners all through history. That's how
progress has been achieved.
And I can understand the problems with presenting the background to
ideas, for confused people ;-), there are a lot of them around.

Here's what I want:
"The Mother's dream is that all beings in Creation experience their
true grandeur and greatness. And in their greatness, do whatever
they desire. The Mother's deepest desire is that you and everyone
else in Our Creation be completely free and empowered to do whatever
you want, go wherever you wish and be with whomever you choose.

"At first your mind will have difficulty understanding how this
could be possible, but We can assure you it is not only possible,
but necessary.

I see, it is a little like the message of the church. If I can
understand and accept the message of the church I can become happy and
get lots of friends in the spiritual community of the church?

Free Will, completely free and joyous in the
presence of unwavering loving Light is the truly natural way in our
Creation. And this Creation is the basis of your own Creation and
the full manifestation of your greatness."
- from http://www.godchannel.com/folksinterview.html

I am sure you are not aware of it, but you are actually close to
replicating the classical message of all churches, "if you understand
and accept our message you will be savioured, you will be reborn and
very happy".

These churches are not interested in talking in clear language, not
interested in changing the real world.
They are more interested in finding a way to understand the world and
how to spread that message so all people can be happy.

One science fiction writer described the situation as a world where the
state/church had spread out a virus which made it very uncomfortable to
live, unless you took a pill issued by the church every day, and in
that way the church could keep the population under control. Do as we
say, think as we tell you and you will be in heaven, otherwise you will
be in hell.