[Rich The Philosophizer]

If I need to learn something to understand something which is presented in
a language which is not clear and concrete I wonder if I am in a church of
some kind.

Well, it's no kind of church - almost the opposite. It's more like they
try to explain that Deity is in everybody, and we can communicate with
them directly, kinda like taking the church with you:
http://www.godchannel.com/reality.html

I see no concrete suggestions in clear language about changing the real
world. No clear language analysis of how the social processes work or what
traditions these processes are based on.

Here ya go:
http://www.godchannel.com/4steps.html

Newsgroup texts are preserved forever, blogs disappear as soon as your
account is ended. You can avoid critical comments completely in a blog,
not in a newsgroup. Maybe these differencies sound positive to you ;-)

Well, the way I understand it, a blog is nothing but an on-line diary;
sort of a guestbook for oneself. Except some of them let other people
leave comments, but they're usually shown in a smaller font.

For an open and rational discussion newsgroups are much better.
alt.society.futures is my favorite, low activity and discussions like
these fit the newsgroup name.

I'm trying to get over my laziness and put up a Matt Wright wwwboard
on one of my websites. They can be laid out similar to a NG, if you
wanted to. But on the web, I'd want some kind of registration or
something, like you have to send an email and the autoresponder
gives you a password or something.

Wise people have sounded like whiners all through history. That's how
progress has been achieved.
And I can understand the problems with presenting the background to ideas,
for confused people ;-), there are a lot of them around.


I see, it is a little like the message of the church. If I can understand
and accept the message of the church I can become happy and get lots of
friends in the spiritual community of the church?

Ick! **** No!

I am sure you are not aware of it, but you are actually close to
replicating the classical message of all churches, "if you understand and
accept our message you will be savioured, you will be reborn and very
happy".

Nope. Nobody's getting "savioured" unless they "saviour" themselves. Maybe
it would be useful to you to understand your resistance to trying out a
bigger version of reality.

These churches are not interested in talking in clear language, not
interested in changing the real world. They are more interested in finding
a way to understand the world and how to spread that message so all people
can be happy.

One science fiction writer described the situation as a world where the
state/church had spread out a virus which made it very uncomfortable to
live, unless you took a pill issued by the church every day, and in that
way the church could keep the population under control. Do as we say,
think as we tell you and you will be in heaven, otherwise you will be in
hell.

You clearly haven't even looked at the website. The situation you describe
is precisely what needs to be _undone_ if Creation is going to survive:
"Free Will means there is no Will above. There is no higher authority.
The buck stops here. I decide. Free Will is in charge... and makes the
choices for what happens and how. Humans in their weakness ask for
divine help, and in their strength... solve their own problems, thank
you very much."
- http://www.godchannel.com/evolve.html

Cheers!
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Roger Johansson]

As much as you'd like to believe that it's the "old traditions" which
are causing the problems, I can counter with that it's the crumbling
of the old traditions that's causing them. Take away the stability of
the framework which children experience in a traditional, nurturing,
home environment and you wind up with amoral animals bent on little
but satisfying their own whims and having no way to gauge the
consequences of their actions.

If these old traditions had really worked there would have been no need
for modern ideas like democracy, equality between the genders,
secularisation, human rights, womens rights, etc..
We would have been living in a happy and stable theocratic system for
thousands of years if that old system had worked really well.

The problems you describe are problems which appear as these traditions
are being abolished. We live in an era of confusion, as the old
traditions break down, and are not immediately replaced by a better
system, a period of struggle between the old and the new system is
chaotic. Like what is happening in Iraq right now in the political
field.

you denigrate as worthless a committment between a man and a
woman

No, I have nothing against love. I am only against the way the society
gets involved in the relation between two people and the methods used
to create a special kind of love, the eternal love the church is
talking about. How men and women are manipulated and forced into
their gender roles before they are allowed to marry.

to bring children into the world to further their views.

Do people really bring children into the world "to further their views"?
Sounds like a strange way to view parenting, and a highly questionable
way to use children. Do you live in Palestine or Texas?

Why should he? As far as I know he owes you nothing and he's not in
public therapy here.

We were talking about how the truth will make us free. As long as
billions of people do not tell the real truth about how they think and
how the traditional social processes work the old system will be left
intact, or left half broken to be more exact.

You seem to think that just asking for ammunition will get you the
information you need to vanquish your critics.

If the truth gives me ammunition, doesn't that show that I was right?
If the truth contradicts what I am saying, what are you worried about?
Are you afraid of the truth?

You haven't yet demonstrated that you're worthy of receiving that
data.

This is a public discussion, not email.
Anybody who tells the truth here is telling it to the world.
I have no personal interest in this.

Ignoring that, the question is why you feel the need to be at odds
with your critics.

Oh, yeah, survival. I forgot about that...

A total misunderstanding of the situation. I am not debating to stay
"alive" in your sense of the world. I have never been born, in your
sense of the word. I have never been married. For me it is very
painful to discuss and I would welcome a very long vacation.

But as long I have to live in a very stressful situation as a social
outcast in a creationist society I can just as well use the stress to
think clearly to help people who are too drunk on love, or alcohol,
to think clearly for themselves. That is better than to become a serial
killer or something.

My social environment has been trying to get me married for 30 years,
or trying to make me a real man, using very drastic methods. For
example 3 years ago a neighbor above me spent 6 months stomping and
thumping very hard on his floor, my ceiling. I became a total nervous
wreck from that treatment. The girl I had hoped for
for years finally showed up, in the supermarket, but I did not
recognize her, my mind was too confused from stress, she became
angry and stormed away, so I lost that chance. A beautiful 22 year
old girl who had been waiting for me for 5 years.

I had to move out into a cabin in the forest for two years to let my
nervous system cool down again. For medical reasons I had to
move back into the same apartment a year ago. Such things have
happened continously for 30 years now. I have been very close to
death several times during this time, and at least 6 girls have waited
in vain for me to become a real man.

It took me a long time to begin to understand what the reason for all
this mobbing, physical violence, harassing, threats, etc.. was all
about.

Now I have realized that my natural calmness from growing up in the
forest plus some fear created by idiots often was mistaken for being
a newly wed man who needs that kind of treatment to save his honor,
or something like that.

I suffer from several serious illnesses and I am probably
close to death now.
The only positive result of all this suffering is that I have learned
more about how this world works than anybody before me, and I have
learned how to express myself in ways which cannot be twisted around
or misunderstood.

I am not doing this because need the money, as they could say in your
world, I do this because I have nothing better to do while I am waiting
to die.


"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be
happy, if not, you'll become a philosopher."
(Socrates)

Love makes men happy, but also very stupid.
History is made by men who can think clearly, however painful it may be.

 

[Roger Johansson]

You clearly haven't even looked at the website.

I have, many times, and it is getting increasingly clear that I was
right in what I wrote in my previous message.

The situation you
describe is precisely what needs to be undone if Creation is going to
survive: "Free Will means there is no Will above. There is no
higher authority. The buck stops here. I decide. Free Will is in
charge... and makes the choices for what happens and how.

Free will needs a lot of training to achieve, a lot of determination
and anger, for people who live in fear. And most do live in a fear
caused by the social organisation. To live in the fear of God means
something real.

Humans in their weakness ask for divine help,

No, it just looks that way for the strong minds who dominate more
natural and relaxed minds with latent violence.

If you listen more closely you will hear humans whisper:
"Go away, I am afraid of you. But if you must stay, help me."

Creationism is a system for creating strong marriages and strong love,
but it is also a system for social domination, a power structure.

The best trained and successful in social life get more power over
others than less trained people.
That is how the creationist system has survived for so long, it has
very strong conservating mechanisms.
Only those who accept and believe in the system can get any power in
the society.

Critics are seen as people who have not yet grown up fully, not yet
understood fully, as weak people who need guidance and more mobbing.

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

I have, many times, and it is getting increasingly clear that I was right
in what I wrote in my previous message.


Free will needs a lot of training to achieve, a lot of determination and
anger, for people who live in fear. And most do live in a fear caused by
the social organisation. To live in the fear of God means something real.

Yes. You're exactly right. That exact fear, and that exact rage, need
unconditional loving acceptance, and they will teach you what you need to
know to be Free. That's their purpose, and it has been denied to them
since the Big Bang. That denial is what has been causing death. Undenying
your own Will is what gives it freedom, but it can be difficult to get
free of the programming that's keeping you from being truly Free.

No, it just looks that way for the strong minds who dominate more natural
and relaxed minds with latent violence.

If you listen more closely you will hear humans whisper: "Go away, I am
afraid of you. But if you must stay, help me."

A lot of humans are saying a lot of things, and each is true in its own
way. The story of how Creation came to be is a very long story, and very
difficult to understand, especially if you think you already know all
there is to know. It has also been very painful for most of the Magnetic
Essence that got blown to smithereens in that cosmic explosion that
everybody so glibly talks about. "Oh, there was this singularity, and it
blew up, and then there was The Universe."

It's bigger than that.

Creationism is a system for creating strong marriages and strong love, but
it is also a system for social domination, a power structure.

Well, all dogma is related to domination. The point is that we need to
free ourselves of that domination. There really _are_ haves and have-nots,
and it's an injustice that's been going on since the beginning of time,
and that injustice needs to be corrected, and the way to do that is to
accept all of your own Will, undeny your denials, release your judgements
and guilt, and redeem your unloving Light.

And, since the outer world is a reflection of your inner self, outer
reality will change in proportion to your inner healing to Wholeness.

The best trained and successful in social life get more power over others
than less trained people.
That is how the creationist system has survived for so long, it has very
strong conservating mechanisms.
Only those who accept and believe in the system can get any power in the
society.

Oh, it's bigger than that. They're actually working for The God of Power,
Ahriman, who it turns out is Satan in a God suit. And the warriors on the
other side are working for Lucifer.

But they're just a reflection of unlovingness that we all got imprinted
with, and when we heal our unlovingness, it heals the outer reflection.

Critics are seen as people who have not yet grown up fully, not yet
understood fully, as weak people who need guidance and more mobbing.

Well, the god of Power hates Free Will, but it turns out that it's time
for the god of Power to step down and all Essence to be Loved back to
Wholeness. And it's time for Free Will to be truly Free. This is
terrifying, because it's never been done before, and also, all of the
terror that has not moved since the original trauma has to be felt, and
the terrified essence loved back into unconditional acceptance, so that
She doesn't have to be afraid any more. But casting out your fear is what
caused the predicament in the first place. Don't do that. Feel it, Accept
it, Love it. And become even more of who you truly are.

Good Luck!
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

I suffer from several serious illnesses and I am probably close to death
now.
The only positive result of all this suffering is that I have learned
more about how this world works than anybody before me, and I have
learned how to express myself in ways which cannot be twisted around or
misunderstood.

I am not doing this because need the money, as they could say in your
world, I do this because I have nothing better to do while I am waiting
to die.


"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be
happy, if not, you'll become a philosopher." (Socrates)

Love makes men happy, but also very stupid. History is made by men who
can think clearly, however painful it may be.

OK - you're Will-polarized. It's natural for you to distrust authority.
This is a _Good_ thing. I'm Will-polarized too. The Spirit side has no
clue, and even less compassion. Except the top spirit, but people aren't
listening to him because spirit #2 has been in charge. That is now
changing.

Here's the part of the godchannel site you need to see:
http://www.godchannel.com/expguide.html

The Mother of Everything feels every one of your pains, She experiences
everything you experience, and there hasn't been anything She could do
about it for a very long time; but Spirit has finally clued up, and now
desperately wants to heal Mother's pain, but He needs for us to accept
our own pain for what it is - a cry for healing. And we need to learn
how to let go of the judgements that are keeping us trapped.

Love,
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Roger Johansson]

The story of how Creation came to be is a very long story, and very
difficult to understand

It started when we were apes, before we became humans.

In a flock of apes you see the young males run around and shout, throw
sticks and stones, trying to scare the other males, and trying to
impress the females.

The toughest male sits there and looks grim, and occasionaly beats up
one of the younger males who tries to challenge him.

The females and the children sit together and try to stay out of
trouble.

This primitive power system was transformed into a social power system
as we became humans.

50 000 years ago the elders told stories about creation of power around
the camp fires.
They developed a secret language, which the grownups could understand,
but children and un-initiated people did not understand the symbolism,
so they began to believe in supernatural things.

As humans learned to write the stories could be preserved and we can
read old creation myths from all over the world.
They tell us about initiation rites, how boys become men, how the
social structure of the society works, heaven and hell.

The christian ideology is just one variant of these creation myths.

The social life in our world still follow many parts of these creation
myths, and preserve a social domination system from before the stone
age, from the ape stage of human heritage.

Women still admire men who have concentrated and grim faces. They
mistreat nice boys to help them get angry, so they can get a girl who
thinks it is manly to be violent and dangerous.

Traditions preserve old views and social structures, and work against
development and new ideas.

People who believe in old ideas and manipulate others to uphold old
traditions usually think they are doing a good thing.
The pope thinks he does a good thing by upholding the authority of the
church. Youngsters who mob other youngsters in school think they are
doing something good.

They just don't realize that they are upholding very old structures
which stand in the way of new ideas and a better future for mankind.

 

[Roger Johansson]

Yes. You're exactly right. That exact fear, and that exact rage, need
unconditional loving acceptance, and they will teach you what you
need to know to be Free.

Well, suppose I don't want to be taught anything by the people who have
tortured me for most of my life, who have destroyed my body and
subjected my brain to unimaginable pains?

And I am too old and ill anyway, I don't want to spend my last days
among idiots who have nothing better to do with their lives than to
threaten each other socially and call it honor. They play a social game
from the stone age and think they are smart.

What could I gain from being with girls who have no idea of what a
natural life is?
They spend their lives following rules they have been taught by
a stone age system.

In the western world today we see how women and children learn to use
violence just as men have been trained for thousands of years. Young
girls take knives to school to be able to defend themselves, children
see movies like Home Alone and play violent computer games.

They are trying to abolish patriarchalism by training women and
children to become men too. What a stupid idea.

It would be much better to abolish the male gender role, the holy wrath
and the holy spirit, the strong will. That is the big problem.
Female personalities, the result of training girls to become love
machines, is also a big problem.

 

[Mark Jones]

Rich The Philosophizer wrote:




Well, suppose I don't want to be taught anything by the people who have
tortured me for most of my life, who have destroyed my body and
subjected my brain to unimaginable pains?

And I am too old and ill anyway, I don't want to spend my last days
among idiots who have nothing better to do with their lives than to
threaten each other socially and call it honor. They play a social game
from the stone age and think they are smart.

What could I gain from being with girls who have no idea of what a
natural life is?
They spend their lives following rules they have been taught by
a stone age system.

In the western world today we see how women and children learn to use
violence just as men have been trained for thousands of years. Young
girls take knives to school to be able to defend themselves, children
see movies like Home Alone and play violent computer games.

They are trying to abolish patriarchalism by training women and
children to become men too. What a stupid idea.

It would be much better to abolish the male gender role, the holy wrath
and the holy spirit, the strong will. That is the big problem.
Female personalities, the result of training girls to become love
machines, is also a big problem.

Hmmm... so we should have more Demi Moores and Elen Degeneres's in the world?
Yeah, that's cute for a minute. But only a minute.

Chew on this a second: http://www.travelmateinfo.com/page002.html

Call me traditional, but I can't stand all the confusion of today. Everyone
either is a swing partner, or gay, or both. Girls want to pee standing up and
guys stay home and take care of the kids. 2 in 5 here has a sexually-transmitted
disease. 2 in 5! Things were so much simpler in say, the 60's. Monogamy was a
real word and respect was not just for black rappers. Is our current state due
to the widespread drug use in the 70's? I don't know.

Instead of abolishing the male gender role, we just need to abolish all the
[white] males. Then the world will be perfect, everyone else will finally have
what they want: no more majorities.

Perhaps the stone-age is akin to the stoned-age?

 

[Roger Johansson]

Hmmm... so we should have more Demi Moores and Elen Degeneres's in
the world?

No, I don't think so. They are both far too tough for my taste.

I prefer the traditional female, before they started to get tough.
But I would even more want females who have not been trained to be
women at all.

Young girls are trained to be mindstrong in the early teens, and that
is not good, I would prefer totally natural girls.

Is our current state due to the
widespread drug use in the 70's? I don't know.

I don't think so. The drugs, except for alcohol, are condemned as
immoral or illegal by the creationist elite which is ruling the world,
so the drugs are not something they like.

They hate drugs for several reasons. Amphetamine and other speed drugs
are direct competitors with the creationist love. The creationists
don't want people to get speeded high in any other way than through the
social processes they want to uphold. The holy spirit doesn't like
competition.

They don't like hallucinogens because they dissolve the stressed states
of mind the creationists use so much violence and indoctrination to put
in people's heads.

They don't like painkillers from the opiate group because it kills the
pain and fear the creationists try to put in people's minds.

Instead of abolishing the male gender role, we just need to abolish
all the [white] males. Then the world will be perfect, everyone else
will finally have what they want: no more majorities.

The other men in the world are not so much better than the western
world men, they are just not so openly violent as the white males.

I think we can explain things instead of getting rid of people.

The problems which plague the world can only exist as long as billions
of people are not telling the truth. As long as they are lying the old
problem structures can continue.

The present chaotic situation is a result of many people trying to
abolish the old syatem by stressing up people, to break up old ways to
think, but I think it is bad method, which might even make the old
structures even stronger.

 

[Mark Jones]

The present chaotic situation is a result of many people trying to
abolish the old system by stressing up people, to break up old ways to
think, but I think it is bad method, which might even make the old
structures even stronger.

I'm fully convinced that reality (existance, space-time) is an integral of
infinity; to make this short every action therefore has an equal (and usually
opposite) reaction. So, to cause a mass-reversion to the old system, the best
approach is to push the new system. Then, once everyone speculates why you want
the new system, they will revert back to the old system. Don't bother trying to
push the old system, that will never work.

I'd love to meet a woman who has not been moulded by society. Not that women
are inherently defective; just that stereotypes are supposed to be an
observation, not a discipline. It seems many of the women I see anymore are just
shells of people - there is not really anything interesting in there, just some
pre-programmed microcode: "10:Get guy with lots of money. 20:Spend money.
30:Goto 10." Interesting, creative, original women might actually exist, but
likely they are hidden away like trophies by their controlling alpha-male
husbands (owners.) Some habits... die hard.


-- "Fate is not only for men to decide." MCJ 200405

 

[Roger Johansson]

So, to cause a mass-reversion to the old system, the best
approach is to push the new system.

That is my view too. But most world leaders are too scared or too
incompetent to push a new view. They have a strategy which seems to be
based on representing the old view, and do that in a way which is
supposed to enlighten the general public.

A recent example are the leaders of China, who feel compelled to
represent the historic hate against Japan, and the need to take Taiwan
back. The leaders are more progressive than the people, and they have
no real intention of starting a war or anything like that, but they
feel a need to bend to the public opinion. If I was president of China I
would summon the whole people to a tv-speech, and I would tell them
what is expected from a modern and civilized people. I would point to
examples as how the russians and the germans today have very friendly
relations. I would tell them to forget what happened 60 years ago, and
I would do it with emphasis.

If they shoot me afterwards I don't care, I have at least told them
what they need to hear. I would have done my duty as a leader of the
Chinese people. I would have told the truth as best as I can.

Somebody should tell the american people a thing or two they need to
hear too, by the way. But I have talked about that in other texts many
times.

Another example is the taboo against nudity in american tv channels and
movies. This is a stupid way of giving in to conservative idiots. It is
a religious idea which modern people have no reason to follow.
I think producers and movie makers should be a little more modern and
have wider horizons.
They can show any amount of violence, murder, torture, rape (without
showing naked skin), beatings, threats, etc... but they do not dare
showing naked people.

In french and swiss and german movies from 30 years ago people walked
around half and whole-naked without anybody getting upset over that.
The strong influence of american media channels has actually dragged
Europe backwards by a few decades.

Then, once everyone speculates
why you want the new system, they will revert back to the old system.

I think the main reason for the hesitation to represent new views is
that it could cause a backlash, it could serve to organize the old
system for fight.
So it is seen safer to wear the old ones out slowly, relying on natural
death of older generations as much as enlightening information.

Don't bother trying to push the old system, that will never work.

Some leaders are pushing the old system but do it so badly that they
actually work for the new views. That is a possible strategy, but I
wonder if it is the best.

We should at least work in other ways simultaneously, and we need
more talk about the newer perspective, as well as methods to handle the
old views in a suitable way.

I'd love to meet a woman who has not been moulded by society. Not
that women are inherently defective; just that stereotypes are
supposed to be an observation, not a discipline. It seems many of the
women I see anymore are just shells of people - there is not really
anything interesting in there, just some pre-programmed microcode:
"10:Get guy with lots of money. 20:Spend money. 30:Goto 10."

You just described the worst types we can imagine. And we should feel
sorry for people who live such shallow and empty livers. But also the
best, most loving and intelligent ones have a lot of training in their
heads
which disturb a natural life. A good man who knows how the world works
should be able to help both her and himself out of the fixed mindset
which the society has instilled in them.

But you need a certain amount of personality or skills to get the girl
to begin with, of course.

Interesting, creative, original women might actually exist, but
likely they are hidden away like trophies by their controlling
alpha-male husbands (owners.) Some habits... die hard.

There are big variations in all variables when it comes to people.
Generalizations are very useful tools, but we should not be fooled by
them. There are all kinds of people

 

[Mark Jones]

There are big variations in all variables when it comes to people.
Generalizations are very useful tools, but we should not be fooled by them.
There are all kinds of people

That's very true. I met a woman and after seeing her a few times, I felt like I
was trying out for a job interview. Have you heard of the book "He's Just Not
That Into You?" It's written by some Hollywood comedians... it actually does
have some interesting points in it, but it might be far too critical and
narrow-minded about the male race. Anyways, this woman read it and felt she had
to "test me" to see if I could pass everything in the book.

That's just not right. I'm not going to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove
I am sensitive, compassionate, dedicated, interested, etc. Those should come
naturally and willingly. Yes, effort is required in any relationship, but that
is a given. I wasn't the least bit motivated after this test. Not all guys are
predictable or can be stereotyped, the same with women. How would a woman feel
after being asked out on a date, only to be handed a questionaire prior to
dinner? To rely solely on a book to determine who is right for you, that's just
silly.

Regarding nudity, I think the US is only trying to prevent outrage and chaos by
censoring it. A lot of people here (parents, churches, politicians, etc.) would
take offense to seeing naked people. That and quite a few people here are
overweight... the mental imagery is not pretty!

Generally we fear it would lead to further social unrest, prostitution, crime,
etc. Of course, keeping nudity taboo fosters a huge pornographic industry so
there might be alterior motives. Perhaps if we just embraced nudity, we'd like
it. Anymore, women's clothing leaves little to the imagination. Models sometimes
pose nude for artistic events, nobody seems to say a thing about that. Babies
sometimes run around with little or no clothing, we don't seem to say much about
that. Every town has at least one "gentleman's club" featuring nude showgirls...
but a man here would be arrested if he tried to suntan in the nude on his own
property. You have to go to a "nudist beach" to do that.

Clothes are handy though; they keep us warm, hide our ugly spots, provide
strength, support, and protection. There are very few times I would prefer being
naked where I cannot already be. Still, it's one more freedom we don't really
have in the US.

Denmark sounds like a lovely place.


-- "We cannot expect to stumble into happiness; it must come from within." MCJ
20050119

 

[Ban]

snip anecdote

Regarding nudity, I think the US is only trying to prevent outrage
and chaos by censoring it. A lot of people here (parents, churches,
politicians, etc.) would take offense to seeing naked people. That
and quite a few people here are overweight... the mental imagery is
not pretty!
snip>
Denmark sounds like a lovely place.

I once had a Danish GF, who needed to do at least 4hrs. love-making every
night and again the whole morning. She threatened to throw me out if I did
less.
She was really nice, a beautiful lady, very educated. Her parents were the
priests(!) on a beautiful island near Sweden. But after 6 weeks I started to
get bored of all this action and finally returned to my previous GF. Well,
that sounds pretty "macho", but it happened this way.

BTW the OP is Swedish, and the Danish like them even less than the
Germans... That's Europe!

 

[Roger Johansson]

Denmark sounds like a lovely place.

One early morning in Denmark I saw a beautiful young woman walk slowly,
and sensually, along a street in Copenhagen, with a thin blue scarf
loosely draped around her hips, and nothing else on. She had breasts
which looked like pyramids of white marble, an incredible sight.
It was the most beautiful body I have ever seen in a public place.

I have spent periods of my life in Denmark, because it is
more laid-back and relaxed than my own country Sweden.

Fortunately, we have had a nordic union for a long time which means
that citizens of one nordic country can go to another nordic country,
without a passport or ID-card, and we can stay and work and live in
each others countries like in our own without any need for staying
permits or workers permits, etc..

I actually feel more at home and safer in Copenhagen than in
Stockholm, my own capital, which is more hectic and there are
more moralist people around, who think they have a right to
meddle in other people's lives.

I think he most tolerant and safe place in the world is the northern
part of continental Europe. Denmark, Germany, Holland and France.

Yugoslavia was also very nice, before the western powers decided to cut
it up into smaller parts.

In the 70-ies I was several times in Yugoslavia and I have only
positive memories from that country.

In the center of Belgrade there is a medieval fortress, between the two
rivers which flow together there.

I and a friend came there looking for somewhere to sleep. In the
afternoon the tourists left the place and we climbed up a grassy slope
and came up to a low stone wall, obviously used by defenders of the
fortress to hide behind.

We rolled out our sleeping bags and went to sleep on the grass by the
stone wall.

I woke up later that night, and saw two big hands holding a
broken glass bottle in front of my face.
I saw the horizon through the bottle, and it looked like there was
something burning. I became aware of other people around too.

I managed to get my right arm out of the sleeping bag. I grabbed the
hands and pulled them closer to my face, and sucked in through the hole
between his thumbs.

The horizon exploded in a firestorm. He tried to pull away, but I held
on until I could get one more lungful of smoke.
He walked over to my friend who did the same.

A guy was sitting on the low stone wall and played guitar. We sat
against the wall and looked at the sight of Belgrade at night.

Later we walked and danced through the streets of Belgrade and did
some stupid stuff, like climbing lamp posts, etc.. The guy with the
guitar was playing and singing as we strolled through the city.

We came home to one of the girls in the gang, and she was an artist,
lots of canvases and paint. We slept there in her apartment.

The next day they drove us in a jeep through the streets of Belgrade,
the jeep overloaded by 7-8 people, weaving in and out between other
cars, and we were laughing and shouting, to a place where we could
continue hitchhiking further south into Macedonia.

In Macedonia we walked into a small village to get some food. My friend
liked milk and he usually managed to get hold of some. Walking out of
the village towards the big road we were suddenly stopped by the
police. They stopped everybody, old men, children, cars, trucks and
cows and told us all to stay where we were.

A strange situation, until we got the explanation. Some kind of disease
had been detected in the village, and the authorities stopped all
communications and movements until they got a better grip of the
situation.

An hour later a doctor came and looked at us and we were
allowed to continue or journey.
That was the only time I had any contact with the police in Yugoslavia,
and they behaved very correctly and friendly.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Johansson

Yugoslavia was also very nice, before the western powers decided to cut
it up into smaller parts.

That's not correct. Yugoslavia was a number of separate states until
WW1. Stamp collectors know all about that. Afterwards, it was *created*
by the Powers in order to prevent the continued animosity between the
states. Later, Marshal Tito kept it together in spite of renewed violent
internal antagonism between those who supported Hitler and those who
didn't.

It was Tito's death that created the recent conflict, and everyone knew
it would happen. I learned about that in school, in 1953.