Who should wire smokes: alarm company vs. electrician?

[Jeffrey J. Kosowsky]

We are considering adding centrally alarmed smokes to our house to
replace the current $10 battery operated gizmos scattered throughout
the house.

The house is a relatively large old Victorian so wiring is not easy.
We have two choices:
A. Have the electrician pull wiring for smokes (and install the
detectors) as part of the other work we have him doing in
upgrading and adding new circuits. Logic is that he is already
pulling wires all over the house and that the smoke wiring can
piggyback along. Plus, his labor rate is not much higher than
the big name alarm company.

B. Have alarm company install smokes as part of the security alarm
install.

- Which would you recommend?

- Do electricians typically do as "good" a job?

- If I go with an electrician, does it matter what type of (low
voltage) detector I use? i.e. (is there a compatibility issue with
the security alarm system)

- What model would you recommend using for the smokes? Is there a big
difference in quality among models?

- While we are at it, should we have the electrician pull wiring for
other parts of the alarm system, such as keypads, motion detectors,
etc?


Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Nick Markowitz]

If you use montitored low voltage smokes they must be type that have built
in sounder that works thru a reversing relay so they work like the 120 volt
version you have and be taking out.
so they can be heard in every bedroom .The alarm system will have to always
be maintained so smokes work.
electricains can do excelent wire snaking jobs I have seen some wiring jobs
i still wonder how the hell they got the wire there.
The monitored smokes have advantage of sending signal to monitoring station
the 120 volt smokes are not recomended for this purpose . but it can be
acomplished if you find the right type of 120 volt smoke with built in
relays like gentex. otherwise you run the risk of a fire truck showing up
every time you lose power. if you use the standard off the shelf smoke.


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[G. Morgan]

alt.security.alarms

We are considering adding centrally alarmed smokes to our house to
replace the current $10 battery operated gizmos scattered throughout
the house.

The house is a relatively large old Victorian so wiring is not easy.
We have two choices:
A. Have the electrician pull wiring for smokes (and install the
detectors) as part of the other work we have him doing in
upgrading and adding new circuits. Logic is that he is already
pulling wires all over the house and that the smoke wiring can
piggyback along. Plus, his labor rate is not much higher than
the big name alarm company.

That logic is fine, as long as they are 110V smokes and you don't plan
on hooking them to the alarm panel.

B. Have alarm company install smokes as part of the security alarm
install.

- Which would you recommend?

The alarm company smokes are *monitored*, so obviously they are a
better choice.

- Do electricians typically do as "good" a job?

Depends. There are good and bad in both trades.

- If I go with an electrician, does it matter what type of (low
voltage) detector I use? i.e. (is there a compatibility issue with
the security alarm system)

Yes!! And the wires have to be run a certain way.

- What model would you recommend using for the smokes? Is there a big
difference in quality among models?

I have always recommended Sentrol 500 series. Keep in mind there is a
compatibility issue with your alarm panel. Smoke detectors come in
four-wire or two-wire, if your panel is compatible with two-wire
smokes they (generally) are a better choice.

- While we are at it, should we have the electrician pull wiring for
other parts of the alarm system, such as keypads, motion detectors,
etc?

NO. NO. NO. !!!!!! Absolutely not!!

 

[Jeffrey J. Kosowsky]

alt.security.alarms


That logic is fine, as long as they are 110V smokes and you don't plan
on hooking them to the alarm panel.

Why can't we have the electrician pull 4-conductor cable for low
voltage detectors? Perhaps don't even ask him to put in the detectors
themselves, just do the wiring

If so, what type of 4-wire conductor should he be pulling?

The alarm company smokes are *monitored*, so obviously they are a
better choice.

Again, I was just thinking of using the electrician as a more cost
effective installer, but still calling in an alarm company at the end
to hook it all up to a panel and monitoring it.

Depends. There are good and bad in both trades.


Yes!! And the wires have to be run a certain way.

Can you tell me what is the "certain" way that the wires have to be
run? Would any 4-conductor cable (like telephone wire) work?

I have always recommended Sentrol 500 series. Keep in mind there is a
compatibility issue with your alarm panel. Smoke detectors come in
four-wire or two-wire, if your panel is compatible with two-wire
smokes they (generally) are a better choice.

Are 4-wire smokes better than 2-wire?
What do the extra wires buy you?
Is the Sentrol 500 series 2 or 4 wire?

Is it better to run 4-wires so that they are there and then one can
always decide whether to use 2 or 4 wire devices?

How many wires are needed for:
- Keypads/displays
- Motion sensors
- CO detectors
- Horns (I am assuming 2)
- Contacts (I am assuming 2)

NO. NO. NO. !!!!!! Absolutely not!!

What is wrong with having electrician run the wiring and even
installing things like keypads?

(I can understand though why you might want an alarm expert to determine
placement of motion detectors and other sensors)

 

[jackcsg]

What is wrong with having electrician run the wiring and even
installing things like keypads?

I can show you 7,000 reasons on one install why it's a bad idea.
Electricians are job security for the folks in the alarm industry. They are
fun to watch though...all wires are not created equally.
I'd stick with trying to find a reputable alarm company. The chances of that
are slim enough without throwing an electrician in to the picture. Don't
look at the price of protecting your investments/assets, look at the costs.

Jack

 

[Frank Olson]

Why can't we have the electrician pull 4-conductor cable for low
voltage detectors? Perhaps don't even ask him to put in the detectors
themselves, just do the wiring

If so, what type of 4-wire conductor should he be pulling?

18 AWG fire cable.

Again, I was just thinking of using the electrician as a more cost
effective installer, but still calling in an alarm company at the end
to hook it all up to a panel and monitoring it.

An electrician could probably run the wire for the smoke alarms, and in most
residential installs it's a requirement that they provide 110VAC smoke
alarms. Check with your local authority. I don't know that you'll save a
whole lot of money having the electrician run the wires for you (for the DC
smokes).

Can you tell me what is the "certain" way that the wires have to be
run? Would any 4-conductor cable (like telephone wire) work?

Smoke detectors can be "daisy chained". I've seen some installations where
the wiring has been home run, but that isn't necessary (and will save you
money).

Are 4-wire smokes better than 2-wire?

Not necessarily. Two wire smokes may have features available that four wire
don't (like programmable sensitivity from a compatible alarm panel). Four
wire smokes require a power supervision relay.

What do the extra wires buy you?

One more device at the end of the line (power supervision relay).

Is the Sentrol 500 series 2 or 4 wire?

Check them out for yourself.

Is it better to run 4-wires so that they are there and then one can
always decide whether to use 2 or 4 wire devices?
Yup.



How many wires are needed for:
- Keypads/displays

I usually run two four conductors (22 AWG solid) to every keypad.

- Motion sensors

four conductor (22 AWG solid).

- CO detectors

four conductor (usually 18 AWG solid, the same for smoke alarms)

- Horns (I am assuming 2)

two conductor (18 AWG solid)

- Contacts (I am assuming 2)

four conductor (22 AWG solid).


Disclaimer - Read the installation manual for the particular alarm control
you're going to be installing. They'll usually provide a list of
recommended wire gauges for remote devices. Use the above as a "generic"
guide.

What is wrong with having electrician run the wiring and even
installing things like keypads?

Electricians are used to working with AC. Low voltage DC stuff usually
confuses them...

(I can understand though why you might want an alarm expert to determine
placement of motion detectors and other sensors)

That's only one reason. I've seen electricians screw up an alarm
installation faster than you can say "crap".


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Bob Worthy]

What is wrong with having electrician run the wiring and even
installing things like keypads?

(I can understand though why you might want an alarm expert to determine
placement of motion detectors and other sensors)

I just jumped into the middle of this thread but you need to consider that
in any trade there are specialists in each particular segment. Even though
there are two doctors, a foot doctor does not do nose, ears and throat for
instance. Electricians deal with high voltage has a norm. Security, along
with other types of low voltage companies, specialize in that aspect of the
electrical trade. The high voltage tradesmen don't really care about the
effects that low voltage applications may have on their wiring because there
are no adverse effects. On the other hand, low voltage applications can be
adversely effected by high voltage wiiring and therefore must have special
consideration when installing the wiring. If the high voltage contractor
does not do low voltage as a regular part of their business, I doubt they
will understand what effects their high voltage wire can have on your
security system. Secondly, the security of your home and family should be
kept very confidential between you and your company of choice. I don't know
what state you are in, but if you are in a state that requires security
licenseing, the security people are most usually required to have a
background check, required education, drug test etc. I don't know of one
single state that requires that to become an electrician. If fact I know of
some states that an electrician cannot legally install a security system. It
is best to let people do what they do on a regular basis and not try to
cross lines of expertise.

Bob4Secur