Robertc65 Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I want to mount an LED or some sort of Lamp on each of my switch plates that control outdoor lights so that I can tell if they are on or not without having to look out the windows. If all of my lights used a single 2way switch this would be easy but all use 3way switches. On te switch which connects to the actual light this is not a problem but what about the other 3way switch that is connected to the power source. It seems that I need some sort of circuit that can sense current draw or voltage drop. has anyone ever done this before?Thanks in advance Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Hi Rob,That’s not too hard to achieve. With a small toroide core (about 30mm or so) you can make a “transformer”. Let the “mains hot” wire make the primary by winding it through the toroide about 8 to10 turns. The secondary will consist of about 30 turns of a thin insulated wire to which you connect a LED! That’s all you need for each “channel”. Of curse it depends on the load how many turns you might need on each side, but this is a start to experiment with! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robertc65 Posted August 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Thanks for the suggestion. I searched for a 30mm toroidal core and found that I could easily buy them in lots of 1000 or more from any number of questionable offshore manufactures, however I just need a few. I checked allectronics.com and digikey.com. All electronics a a few cool toroidal xformers but no cores. Digikey may have them but they don't show the size. Do you have any idea where I may find one.ThanksRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Hi Rob,They should be easy to find, however the 30mm is not a critical thing. Smaller or larger will also work as long as you can put the wire with enough turns on it. If you don’t have a “junkbox” you could search in a dumpster for old computers and things like that. In many power supplys especially in computers you will find toroids to scavenge! There are many other places to look but as I don’t know your neighbourhood I can’t be more specific! ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 This is roughly what I mean: ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alun Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Ante,How powerfull is this light?I think you'll need a lot more than 30 turns on the secondary or more on the primary, a red LED needs 1.9V to light up and for this to happen the amount of turns on the secondary needs to be a sufficiently high ratio to the voltage drop caused by the current on the primary.Here's an example:The mains light requires 500mA.Suppose the torridial core with 10 turns has an inductance of 100uH (and that's being optimistic), the impedance @50Hz will be:2pi*50*100*10-6 = 0.0314ohmsThe voltage drop on the primary @ 500mA will be just:0.0314 * 0.5 = 15.7mVIf the secondary has 30 turms the out put voltage will only be:3 * 0.0157 = 47.12mV - way to low to power an LED!The voltage needs to be at least 1.9V to light the LED that's 1.9/0.04712 = 40.32 times higher to power the LED so the number of turns on the secondary will need to be:40.32*30 = 1209.7, off course I wind a few more to ensure the LED will glow birght enough as it's forward voltage needs to be above 1.9V.If you don't fancy winding this many turns than I recommend you wined more on the primary.Note:These calulations don't take into account the fact that the core might saturate or the DC resistans of the turns on the secondary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Hi Alun,Yes, as I mentioned these numbers of turns is just a start for experimenting! I don’t know if Rob has one 1000W lamp or five 1000W lamps on each “channel” so there is an X in this equation. I have used this circuit for an evacuation fan (2hp) and it works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robertc65 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Basically each circuit will power either 2 or 4 150 watt flood light bulbs. I do plan to use an LED as the indicator so the 1.9volts is the maximum voltage drop I'll need across the secondary. I work with computers for a living and have plenty of junk around so I'll scavange a few to see if I can find any coils to use.Thanks for all of the good info.Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I would make a current transformer with a voltage too high for the LED and use a current-limiting resistor to protect the LED.Lightbulbs draw about 10 times their rated current when not hot. With an LED connected directly to a current transformer then the LED would conduct 10 times too much current.Light bulbs also frequently arc when they burn out. The arc draws a huge current that would instantly burn out an LED directly connected to a current transformer. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Hi Audioguru,Well Mr Theory expert! ;D Sure, it makes sense to put a current limiting resistor in the circuit like you suggest. The led in my circuit has survived several years with fanmotor starts and stops. The start current peak has a much longer duration in the fanmotor circuit than any light bulb circuit. A led can withstand very high current pulses, no problem! A 20mA led will survive 2A pulses! Besides there are some inertia in the transformer and the current will not be proportional from primary to secondary windings with only the short pulse from a cold filament. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 A 20mA led will survive 2A pulses!Hi Ante,I've seen IR LEDs with a 1A max rating, but I use blue, green and white LEDs with a 100mA max rating.I blink them very briefly at 90mA and they are extremely bright. I wouldn't dare to operate them with pulses exceeding 100mA. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Hi Audioguru,You should try with 2A, but only briefly! ;D I have a circuit description someware, as soon as I find it I’ll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 You should try with 2A, but only briefly!No thanks. The 100mA max rating is for 100us which is brief enough. With its 10% duty cycle its average temp won't be very high so I think there must be a fuse (thin bonding wire) in my low current LEDs.If I find a visible LED with a 2A max rating I'll try it. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Hi Audioguru,OK, this is not the one I was looking for (2A) but anyway Gary thinks it’s possible to send up to 10A through a LED!LED testing: http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Osc/Pulsed-LED.htmBTW: Gary is Canadian so you can trust him! ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Hi Ante,Gary doesn't say which LED he used.I have seen the tiny size of the bonding wire inside my clear LEDs and the case magnifies it.10A! I wouldn't even put that much current through the dinky little SCR he used. Years ago I used that SCR to drive 40mA relays. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 14, 2005 Report Share Posted August 14, 2005 Hi Audioguru,He is using standard LEDs! As I said before; it’s just a brief pulse! Many components can take a lot of over-current if it’s pulses, a 1A diode can in some cases survive 100A or more if it’s pulsed. There are 50mA fuses which will stand for a 10A pulse and they have a really thin wire inside! The 2N5064 however will not support this circuit up to 10A unless it’s a single pulse!I will post the “2A” circuit as soon as I can find it! ;DSo you don’t trust your fellow Canadian? ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robertc65 Posted August 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hey audioguru, Have you never blown anything up just for fun? Are you afraid of a little popping sound or just don't want to blow 20 cents on an LED experiment. You seem a little rigid. Lighten up, The book is not always right.I changed my spec. I have decided to migrate my 6 outdoor light switches into one 6 gang switch box, with single Pole X10 switches. I'm mounting the 6 switches in a hallway equidistant to the front and back doors. This greatly simplifies my indicator issue. Now we are simply dealing with how to light an LED with 110 Volts AC without causing adioguru to get upset at the potential of a popping sound accompanied by a slightly delayed unpleasant smell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hi Robert,Who is rigid?My circuits are designed within manufacturer's ratings and work fine without blowing-up.I have lots of fun blowing-up backwards high-value electrolytic capacitors. When I was young I made capped pipe-bombs that went off like rockets, and open-ended pipe-rockets full of propellant that exploded! I even made a chemical mix with iodine that self-combusted when it dried.Also when I was young I plugged an NE2 neon bulb directly into 120VAC. It disappeared with a bang and I am lucky to still have my fingers and vision.I don't have any 150W lightbulbs to test to see how many mains cycles they draw up to 10 times their rated current until they become hot and their current drops to normal. So I can't test my LEDs with their 100mA absolute max momentary current with 10 times their rated max current.Instead I will test some LEDs with a mains transformer and peak currents 10 times and 20 times their absolute max rated current and let you know what happens. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ante Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hi Guys,Just remember: "There are old technicians and bold technicians, but there are no old, bold technicians." ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hi Ante,Yeah, I'm going to be an old and bold technician by trying a 2A current through my LEDs that have an absolute max instantaneous current rating of only 100mA.If I use a blue LED, do you think the bonding wire will glow orange brighter than the LED? ??? ;DDo you think the junction will glow red, orange or white hot? ??? ;DDo you think the clear plastic will turn brown or black around the hot stuff inside? ??? ;DSeriously, I'll keep the power dissipation of the LEDs within their rating and compare the normal-current brightness to new LEDs after my tests if the LEDs still work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robertc65 Posted August 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Audioguru,No offense intended just trying to be funny. I also used to make pipe bombs and such but you sure can't do that anymore without people over reacting. My electronics experience consists of 13 years repairing consumer electronics equipment which I thankfully quit doing before you could buy a VCR or DVD player from Walmart for $29.95. I gave it up in 1994 and have worked as an Enterprise Computer systems engineer ever since. I do still like to experiment and build electronic gadgets, but I have no real circuit design experience. I just use schematics and such that I find on sites like this and know enough to integrate them and get them working most of the time. Back to trying to light an LED with 110 volts AC. Can I do this with just a resistor or two or is it more involved? Thanks againRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alun Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 This is how it's often done:This is how I do it:I know you're supposed to include a 1k resistor in series to limit the surge and protect the LED when the capacitor charges but I've never had a problem, and you should also add 1M in parallel to discharge the capacitor but I didn't bother because the capacitor discharged though the circuit connected in parallel.You can also connect LEDs in series and in revrse paralell with each other:http://www.electronics-lab.com/forum/attachments/acwhiteleds.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 I think that using a full-wave bridge rectifier is best so that the LED doesn't flicker. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robertc65 Posted August 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Do the circuits you posted use a typical 1.5 volt LED or are you refering to an LED designed to run at 110 volts?Yes I agree Audioguru I would not be happy if it were blinking so I like the idea of a full wave bridge also.Thanks Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioguru Posted August 18, 2005 Report Share Posted August 18, 2005 Hi Robert,Most red LEDs are 1.7V to 2.0V. Blue, green and white LEDs are 2.9V to 3.9V. You can purchase LEDs with a built-in current-limiter that are designed for 5V or 12V but certainly not 110V.Use the full-wave bridge rectifier with a capacitor for 110VAC. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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