[Mainlander]

Lennier, you are absolutely correct (except for owning the copyright to the
*logo* on the certificate, which of course still belongs to the Polytech.
That means you can't claim it as your own work, or ownership).

The logo has been released to the public domain by printing it and giving it
to you as an item that it is expected to be reproduced and displayed.
Therefore you ARE allowed to display the item publically, as you were doing.

As I mentioned, there's a lot of misconceptions about copyright and what you
are and are not allowed to do.

What you are doing is correct. No lawyer with half a brain could argue
against the public display of a certificate.

I'm not arguing against his public display. I'm arguing against his
assertion that he owns the copyright on the scanned image of his
certificate.

 

[Rod Speed]

Doesn't matter whether you scanned it or not. If the
copyright on the document is owned by someone else,
scanning it for reproduction still rides over their copyrights.

Wrong again. It DOES NOT infringe the copyright in this particular situation.

Just like it doesnt if you photograph a billboard containing
a logo or an ad and publish that anywhere you like either.

But you went further, and asserted you owned the copyright of that image.

Irrelevant what he claims as far as copyright infringement is concerned.

 

[Rod Speed]

I'm not arguing against his public display.

Liar, you initially did just that.

WRONG in this particular situation being discussed.

I'm arguing against his assertion that he owns the
copyright on the scanned image of his certificate.

You are attempting that NOW, after you nose was
rubbed in your complete pig ignorance of copyright law.

And whatever he claims, doesnt alter the FACT that
its perfectly legal for him to display his certificate on
his web site if he wants to. Even in NZ

 

[Lennier]

Lennier, you are absolutely correct (except for owning the copyright to the
*logo* on the certificate, which of course still belongs to the Polytech.
That means you can't claim it as your own work, or ownership).

You will find that this is exactly what I have already said.


Lennier

 

[Lennier]

You are attempting that NOW, after you nose was
rubbed in your complete pig ignorance of copyright law.

I *DO* own the right to copy my certificate. I do own the copyright over
my certificate. *I* own the original of that certificate - it is mine to
do what I like with it.

To argue that I cannot duplicate it for my own purposes is, frankly,
absurd.

If I wish to duplicate it 250,000,000,000 times and post it to every
business in the known universe then it is within my right to do so. (would
be stupid to do but nevertheless within my right.) And nobody else has the
right to duplicate my certificate. All rights to the use of my
certificate were granted to me when I was given that certificate. The
polytechnic of course has the right to produce another original if
necessary, and if it so chose to do.

I was not granted the use of any logos that were used by the polytechnic
when they created my certificate. I was granted the unrestricted use of my
certificate as a whole.

Patrick Dunford is a Fundamentalist idiot. He should go back to his "bible
study" - it'll keep him occupied and not doing anything else stupid.


Lennier

 

[T.N.O. - Dave.net.nz]

To argue that I cannot duplicate it for my own purposes is, frankly,
absurd.

Legally you may have to get copies signed off by a lawyer as to their
authenicity... much like a birth certificate.

I was not granted the use of any logos that were used by the polytechnic
when they created my certificate. I was granted the unrestricted use of my
certificate as a whole.

You were? got a copy of that in writing?

 

[Carl Elphick]

Yes you DO as ou are in contact with 240v..

Umm no you don't.
I built my computer with no electrical cert.

 

[Lennier]

You were? got a copy of that in writing?

No.

However, it absolutely and unqualifiedly gave it to me. The Polytechnic
made no restrictions whatsoever as to what I can do with my certificate.

"Silence means consent."

Now, so long as I do not forge those documents - do not create something
that is not legitimately mine, I am quite within my rights.

The idea that I cannot duplicate my own certificate to demonstrate what I
have attained is absurd.


Lennier

 

[Phil Allison]

"Lennier"

The idea that I cannot duplicate my own certificate to demonstrate what I
have attained is absurd.

** Showing that silly scrap of paper around in Australia would only
provoke fits of laughter.

I suggest you keep it well hidden.




........... Phil

 

[Lennier]

Showing that silly scrap of paper around in Australia would only
provoke fits of laughter.

Most likely because Australians are dumber even than Americans!

<plonk!>


Lennier

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

I *DO* own the right to copy my certificate.

Nope, you aint the author or creator of it.

It just happens to have your name on it.

You didnt even write your name on it.

I do own the copyright over my certificate.

Nope, you aint the author or creator of it.

It just happens to have your name on it.

You didnt even write your name on it.

*I* own the original of that certificate

Separate issue entirely to who owns the copyright.

If you buy say a copyrighted paperback, you certainly
own that particular copy. You do NOT have any copyright
over it whatever, even if you say write you name inside
the cover. Basically because what you have written
inside it is not a creative work at all, its just your name.

If you say write an original poem you dreamt up inside the
front cover, you certainly own the copyright to THAT, but not
to anything the author and publisher of the book produced.

- it is mine to do what I like with it.

Separate issue entirely to who owns the copyright.

To argue that I cannot duplicate it for
my own purposes is, frankly, absurd.

Yes, you are welcome to do that if you
want to, say when applying for a job etc.

If I wish to duplicate it 250,000,000,000 times and post it to
every business in the known universe then it is within my right to
do so. (would be stupid to do but nevertheless within my right.)
Correct.

And nobody else has the right to duplicate my certificate.

Thats distinctly arguable and if they dont, it aint because
you have copyright over anything to do with it. You created
NOTHING to do with that certificate, you didnt even write
your name on it. And you cant even copyright a personal name
if you say chose to bin what your parents chose to give you.

All rights to the use of my certificate were
granted to me when I was given that certificate.
Correct.

The polytechnic of course has the right to produce
another original if necessary, and if it so chose to do.
Correct.

I was not granted the use of any logos that were used
by the polytechnic when they created my certificate. I was
granted the unrestricted use of my certificate as a whole.

Correct, even when they retain copyright over the design of it.

Patrick Dunford is a Fundamentalist idiot.
Correct.

He should go back to his "bible study"

It'd be better if he just topped himself.

- it'll keep him occupied and not doing anything else stupid.

Topping himself would at least silence him if he doesnt botch it.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier wrote:

Legally you may have to get copies signed off by a
lawyer as to their authenicity... much like a birth certificate.

Nope, at most that may be something some potential employers
would like to see. In practice anyone with a clue just checks
with the issuer of the purported certificate if they doubt that
the individual is telling lies about being entitled to one.

You were? got a copy of that in writing?

Dont need to, that what certificates are about, legally.

 

[T.N.O. - Dave.net.nz]

No.
However, it absolutely and unqualifiedly gave it to me. The Polytechnic
made no restrictions whatsoever as to what I can do with my certificate.
"Silence means consent."

<mind slips to the gutter> really? I don't think that, that would hold
up in court</mind in the gutter>

my comment was kinda tounge in cheak... you appear to have assumed that
you could make copies, without actually checking.

I happen to agree with you, I would think that it is entirely
possible/legal etc to do so, but, I'm only guessing.

 

[T.N.O. - Dave.net.nz]

Most likely because Australians are dumber even than Americans!

I find that hard to believe... the yanks are really really dumb.

 

[Lennier]

Nope, you aint the author or creator of it.

I have the right to make as many copies of my certificate as I please.

I have the COPY-RIGHT - the RIGHT to COPY my certificate. I possess the
rights to copy that certificate any way I please. In fact nobody else can
copy that certificate.

The fact that I am not the author of the certificate is immaterial - the
ownership of the copyright to that particular certificate has been granted
to me, along with ownership of the certificate itself.

If this were not so then I would not legally be able to duplicate it.


Lennier

 

[Lennier]

<mind slips to the gutter> really? I don't think that, that would hold
up in court</mind in the gutter>

my comment was kinda tounge in cheak... you appear to have assumed that
you could make copies, without actually checking.

I happen to agree with you, I would think that it is entirely
possible/legal etc to do so, but, I'm only guessing.

"Silence means Consent" is a legal principle. The fact that the
Polytechnic has not specifically refused me the permission to duplicate
the certificate means that, as possessor of the original said certificate
and of all rights to the use of the said certificate, I and none other
have the copyright over it.

Frankly, unless someone steals it from me it would be quite impossible for
someone else to make copies of it.


Lennier

 

[Mainlander]

I *DO* own the right to copy my certificate. I do own the copyright over
my certificate. *I* own the original of that certificate - it is mine to
do what I like with it.

You own a copy of a certificate. You do not own the design of the
original blank certificate as it was before your name was imprinted on
it. Copyright of the design is owned by the polytech, as are some of the
parts (logo etc)

 

[Mainlander]

Most likely because Australians are dumber even than Americans!

<plonk!>

No, in your ignorance, it would be because such a certificate has no
standing in Australia

 

[Phil Allison]

"Lennier" <[email protected]

"Silence means Consent" is a legal principle.

** Only in cases where the party consenting has knowledge of what is to be
or is being done.

The fact that the Polytechnic has not specifically refused me the permission to duplicate
the certificate means that, as possessor of the original said certificate
and of all rights to the use of the said certificate, I and none other
have the copyright over it.

** Bullshit.

Copyright lies with the originator.

It can only be lost by written contract of sale or transfer of that
copyright.

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license - a limited
license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.






......... Phil

 

[Lennier]

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license - a limited
license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.

I think you'll find that I have consistently stated "for the purpose for
which the certificate was intended" - namely to prove knowledge and skills
learned.

I possess the original of that certificate - only I can and have the right
to make copies of my certificate - none other can produce direct copies of
my certificate. None other has the right - to make copies of my
certificate.

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate. The
polytechnic can issue a replacement certificate if I request one. But that
is not the same as making a copy of the certificate that only I possess -
it would be producing another original and giving that original to me.

Of course I do not own the copyright over the various designs/logos/etc
that are used to make the certificate - I own the copyright to the
certificate as a complete document.

If I did not own the copyright, then how could I possible grant to an
employer the right to photocopy the certificate if I'd shown him/her the
original?


Lennier