OT: Paid my DTV tax ...

[T]

I am not falling for that. Neither cable nor satellite. Fact is that DTV
is not better than NTSC, it is much less reliable.

I tend to agree with you. We could have stuck with NTSC for a few more
years.

 

[Charlie E.]

Just a note on my own DTV adventures...

I now have my antenna about three feet above my desk on a nice wall
shelf, and have sent the signal through my house distribution network
to both my TVs. In the bedroom, I have one of the Best Buy Apex
boxes, and it is working fairly well on my old 27" analog set.

In the living room, I connected it to my 50" Sony projection TV.
Before the cutover, I couldn't get much of anything in there. I got
the local NBC affiliate (at 1080i!) and some noisy analog stations,
but that was about it. Now, after the cutover, I am getting
everything but the local CBS affiliate, but it is a low power station,
and did not go digital. I even get ABC in 780p.

But, the most interesting thing, was that I decided to look up why my
Sony had such bad color rendition. A black and white DVD I was
watching actually looked green and white. I quickly found that there
had been a class action suit against Sony about my TV, and that there
was a known problem with it. Contacted them, got the number of the
local Sony repair shop, and they came out a few days later and put in
a brand new optical engine in my set! It looks great now!

BTW, the reason the antenna is in my office, is the window in here
looks out to the south and east, and that is the direction where most
of the transmission towers are located. I would put it outside, but
it requires power, and the power supply is not outdoor rated!

Charlie

 

[Joerg]

A generation or so from now we'll start seeing research papers involving new,
ultra-reliable modulation schemes that still permit a fair amount of
information to get through with marginal channel conditions. They'll look a
lot like SSB AM... or the really clever ones will re-invent Faoudja's Super
NTSC
(http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/08/arts/video-bringing-the-television-image-into-focus.html)...


While I'm being facetious here, given the rash of papers as discussed here on
SED such as trying to harvest 5mW out of the ether to recharge phones, I
really do suspect we'll start seeing "original research" regarding how analog
modulation can be superior to the "tried and true" digital schemes -- people
just don't end up knowing a lot of the basics anymore... I guess too much time
is spent on learning the latest programming languages or something.

Yes, that kind of talent is dwindling, and fast.

 

[Joerg]

Of course it is; it uses a lot less bandwidth (see Shannon's theorem). If
you used all of the difference in bandwidth for error correction, you'd
get both quality and reliability, but the powers that be have decided to
use it for extra channels and/or HDTV instead.

Then there is the lack of signal quality indicators plus dumbed-down TV
sets. Heck, not even an RSSI indicator. Pathetic. If I had know that the
signal was a few dBs or bit error volumes from collapsing I'd have used
the time for quality time instead of watching half a western.

 

[Joerg]

I tend to agree with you. We could have stuck with NTSC for a few more
years.

Absolutely. Especially in view of the fact that DTV will be replaced by
some form of stream video on the web in due course. Then the stations
will have a lot of expensive boat anchors.

 

[Joerg]

Just a note on my own DTV adventures...

I now have my antenna about three feet above my desk on a nice wall
shelf, and have sent the signal through my house distribution network
to both my TVs. In the bedroom, I have one of the Best Buy Apex
boxes, and it is working fairly well on my old 27" analog set.

In the living room, I connected it to my 50" Sony projection TV.
Before the cutover, I couldn't get much of anything in there. I got
the local NBC affiliate (at 1080i!) and some noisy analog stations,
but that was about it. Now, after the cutover, I am getting
everything but the local CBS affiliate, but it is a low power station,
and did not go digital. I even get ABC in 780p.

But, the most interesting thing, was that I decided to look up why my
Sony had such bad color rendition. A black and white DVD I was
watching actually looked green and white. I quickly found that there
had been a class action suit against Sony about my TV, and that there
was a known problem with it. Contacted them, got the number of the
local Sony repair shop, and they came out a few days later and put in
a brand new optical engine in my set! It looks great now!

BTW, the reason the antenna is in my office, is the window in here
looks out to the south and east, and that is the direction where most
of the transmission towers are located. I would put it outside, but
it requires power, and the power supply is not outdoor rated!

Well, lucky you. Seem you do not live in an area of heavy multipath.
That's what I always thought would become a problem with ATSC. And sure
enough it did :-(

 

[Jim Yanik]

Just a note on my own DTV adventures...

I now have my antenna about three feet above my desk on a nice wall
shelf, and have sent the signal through my house distribution network
to both my TVs. In the bedroom, I have one of the Best Buy Apex
boxes, and it is working fairly well on my old 27" analog set.

In the living room, I connected it to my 50" Sony projection TV.
Before the cutover, I couldn't get much of anything in there. I got
the local NBC affiliate (at 1080i!) and some noisy analog stations,
but that was about it. Now, after the cutover, I am getting
everything but the local CBS affiliate, but it is a low power station,
and did not go digital. I even get ABC in 780p.

But, the most interesting thing, was that I decided to look up why my
Sony had such bad color rendition. A black and white DVD I was
watching actually looked green and white. I quickly found that there
had been a class action suit against Sony about my TV, and that there
was a known problem with it. Contacted them, got the number of the
local Sony repair shop, and they came out a few days later and put in
a brand new optical engine in my set! It looks great now!

BTW, the reason the antenna is in my office, is the window in here
looks out to the south and east, and that is the direction where most
of the transmission towers are located. I would put it outside, but
it requires power, and the power supply is not outdoor rated!

Charlie

my signal levels with my unpowered indoor homemade quad bowtie range from
55 to 85,sometimes as much as 90.
What signal levels are your converter reporting?

 

[Charlie E.]

Well, lucky you. Seem you do not live in an area of heavy multipath.
That's what I always thought would become a problem with ATSC. And sure
enough it did :-(

No, multipath down here isn't the problem, signal strength is. Here
in the desert, any multipath would be from the local mountains, but
they are significantly farther away than the source. the real problem
is that the sources are all on the opposite side of the Indio Hils,
and also arrayed more to cover the opposite side of the valley, where
the bulk of the population (and money!) is located.

Charlie

 

[Joerg]

Dish TV is always doing that. What a POS! ...and I thought cable
companies were crap.

Probably what's going to happen is less folks watching terrestrial TV
because technical problems such as multipath frustrate them, numbers
drop, ad revenue drops, layoffs ...

Tell Obama. He cares about you.

Too late, the spectrum has been pawned off already and the money's spent.

 

[Joerg]

No, multipath down here isn't the problem, signal strength is. Here
in the desert, any multipath would be from the local mountains, but
they are significantly farther away than the source. the real problem
is that the sources are all on the opposite side of the Indio Hils,
and also arrayed more to cover the opposite side of the valley, where
the bulk of the population (and money!) is located.

Under that scenario it would make sense to get the biggest hinking UHF
antenna you can find. Or go all out and stagger an array of 2, 4, whatever.

Then build a low noise amplifier around the lowest noise transistor you
can find and mount it on the mast. NEC (CEL) comes to mind. What is
marketed as "low noise" in hardware stores and such usually isn't top
notch. But the enclosures are good so you could buy one and scrape the
guts out of it. 1-2dB better noise figure can make a world of difference
in your situation.

 

[krw]

Probably what's going to happen is less folks watching terrestrial TV
because technical problems such as multipath frustrate them, numbers
drop, ad revenue drops, layoffs ...

WRT terrestrial TV, you're probably right. I think it's day is *long*
past. Most, even in large markets have ditched their ugly outdoor
antennas (remember when they were a status symbol?) in favor of a

$100/month cable bill. I did long ago, though now have Dish (yuck!).




Too late, the spectrum has been pawned off already and the money's spent.

You can still hope for hope and change. It's all you'll have left.

 

[Joerg]

WRT terrestrial TV, you're probably right. I think it's day is *long*
past. Most, even in large markets have ditched their ugly outdoor
antennas (remember when they were a status symbol?) in favor of a

Not going to happen here. They are even missing out on large chunks of
the generation that's now in the 20's. Many don't have a TV, they watch
everything via the net. What's not on the web they simply won't see. I
have the impression that the media big shots are blissfully unaware of
this trend. Until one day it'll hit them like a ton of bricks, similar
to what's happening to the print media right now.

You can still hope for hope and change. It's all you'll have left.

My hope is in higher things than that

 

[krw]

Not going to happen here. They are even missing out on large chunks of
the generation that's now in the 20's. Many don't have a TV, they watch
everything via the net. What's not on the web they simply won't see. I
have the impression that the media big shots are blissfully unaware of
this trend. Until one day it'll hit them like a ton of bricks, similar
to what's happening to the print media right now.

No MTV? How did that happen? ;-)

My son and DIL have no cable TV, though do have a 42" plasma TV, along
with all their computer and game stuff. They download programs and
watch DVDs (we gave them a NetFlix subscription).

My hope is in higher things than that

I only hope he leaves me with change. :-(

 

[Joerg]

No MTV? How did that happen? ;-)

I think that's yesteryear by now. Fad don't live long with today's kids.

My son and DIL have no cable TV, though do have a 42" plasma TV, along
with all their computer and game stuff. They download programs and
watch DVDs (we gave them a NetFlix subscription).

Exactamente. One kid downloaded a movie in episodes via Youtube. That
ought to have been painful.

There's got to be a reason why our TV has a VGA input

I only hope he leaves me with change. :-(

Yep. But where to invest the retirement account these days?

OTOH, the last shirt has no pockets. Or as Paul said in the bible "With
nothing you came into this world and you sure can't take anything out of it.

 

[krw]

I think that's yesteryear by now. Fad don't live long with today's kids.

It's still on DISH. Maybe that's a hold-over for the
thirty-somethings now.

Exactamente. One kid downloaded a movie in episodes via Youtube. That
ought to have been painful.

Particularly in 1080p.

There's got to be a reason why our TV has a VGA input

VGA? Eww! What has a VGA output?

Yep. But where to invest the retirement account these days?

My plan is my mortgage (my pension is going right to the principle).
As it is, I'll pay it off in less than four years. If I thought the
economy wasn't going to get even worse I would have bought a more
expensive house. I have no idea what I'll do when it's paid off.
Maybe buy a second.

OTOH, the last shirt has no pockets. Or as Paul said in the bible "With
nothing you came into this world and you sure can't take anything out of it.

The idea is to go out at least even and have fun inbetween.

 

[Joerg]

It's still on DISH. Maybe that's a hold-over for the
thirty-somethings now.

They are probably seem as mega-out

Particularly in 1080p.


VGA? Eww! What has a VGA output?

Laptops do. Well, not the old VGA resolution, of course.

My plan is my mortgage (my pension is going right to the principle).
As it is, I'll pay it off in less than four years. If I thought the
economy wasn't going to get even worse I would have bought a more
expensive house. I have no idea what I'll do when it's paid off.
Maybe buy a second.

Good plan. Nothing better than having no mortgage when retiring.
Although, some might prefer a gamble, thinking that tomorrows Dollars
are inflated more than the interest they are pay on the mortgage.

 

[Joerg]

I actually find it interesting that lots of lightweight laptops seem
to still have VGA, not HDMI or DVI. I suppose they figure that the
main target group is salesguys and that more projectors in meeting
rooms have VGA than DVI or HDMI...

They do, and that's the target application. HDMI is only available on
big screen TVs. Usually only one slot and that's occupied by the DVD player.

Also, a 10ft HDMI cable would be very expensive whereas my 10ft VGA
cable with audio lines was $10.

 

[Joerg]

I actually find it interesting that lots of lightweight laptops seem
to still have VGA, not HDMI or DVI. I suppose they figure that the
main target group is salesguys and that more projectors in meeting
rooms have VGA than DVI or HDMI...

P.S.:

HDMI carries the stigma of media control, DRM and such. So people like
non-censored paths.

 

[Rich Webb]

They do, and that's the target application. HDMI is only available on
big screen TVs. Usually only one slot and that's occupied by the DVD player.

Also, a 10ft HDMI cable would be very expensive whereas my 10ft VGA
cable with audio lines was $10.

$12.95 for a 12-ft HDMI 1.3b Category 2 over at Ramsey but, of course,
retail outlets will be happy to sell an 8-ft Monster (TM) cable for 10x
that price... ;-)

 

[Joerg]

$12.95 for a 12-ft HDMI 1.3b Category 2 over at Ramsey but, of course,
retail outlets will be happy to sell an 8-ft Monster (TM) cable for 10x
that price... ;-)

Plus shipping. But that's still quite decent, not like my $10 cable, but ...