What is your troubleshooting sequence?

Braeden Hamson

Feb 18, 2016
240
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
240
I'm sure we've all had a moment where we have the gizmo pulled apart on our workbench we've tested all the fuses, all the components, we just can't wrap our heads around why. Then we realize it was never plugged in. Well maybe not that bad, but I've certainly had times where I should've gone with a simple troubleshooting step than I did. So I've started to develop a mental checklist of what to check.
-Power
-Proper voltage
-Fuses
-Bad capacitors

What do you guys check when you've got a no-go gizmo?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
It depends on the symptoms.

If it's totally dead with no obvious faults, I'd check:
  1. Fuse
  2. Power rails present
  3. AC power available at fuse (if no power rails)
  4. Power rails in spec (if power rails present)
From there, you might start looking at common faults, before trying a more systematic approach...
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Jun 21, 2012
4,968
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
4,968
Making sure the power is right is the most important thing. No point trying to "troubleshoot" if it isn't! I once wasted a whole day in my youth trying to "troubleshoot" a complex analog op-amp circuit (multiple op-amps) before noticing there was no power on the power supply rails. So that's the first thing I check now, both voltage levels and wave forms, looking for excessive ripple or noise from bad by-pass capacitors.

Any sign of where the smoke escaped from.
It's always a good idea to perform a close physical inspection for clues as to where the problem might have originated. Holes and foil confetti from over-stressed electrolytic capacitors come to mind, as do burn marks on components and circuit boards. Be especially aware that PCB burn marks can be conductive and result in unexpected or faulty circuit operation. That can sometimes be temporarily repaired by scraping away the burned material and painting over it with clear fingernail polish. But, yes, try to find out where the smoke escaped from! And then find out why.
 

Cannonball

May 6, 2017
193
Joined
May 6, 2017
Messages
193
Check the obvious symptoms, a good visual check, burnt smell. If none of this works it depends on the object that you are troubleshooting as to where to start. If it is a receiver or similar device start in the middle for a signal from the detector. If it is present there keep going toward the speaker. If no signal, work back to the antenna.

This logic will work on most electronic devices. It works for me!
 

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
6,512
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
6,512
Depends entirely on the type of equipment - many faults are quite common these days and cause the experienced engineer to skip a few of the basic tests and jump straight to the 'probable cause'.

But the training I was given (and subsequently taught in my latter years) did have proper thought and process behind it - even if it made the final fault discovery take that little bit longer - and the power supply/ies were always the first port of call.

Nowadays an employer would seek someone who both knew the process but had familiarity with common faults and their causes - time is money and even saving half-an-hour in a workshop environment can make a huge difference.

But there's always the flip side of the argument - board/equipment swap-out. Many so-called engineers are only trained to locate a fault to board level or even whole-equipment level and do the basic swap-out. Some say this is the cost-effective method. I call it the dumbing down of the industry.
 

darren adcock

Sep 26, 2016
463
Joined
Sep 26, 2016
Messages
463
Making sure the power is right is the most important thing. No point trying to "troubleshoot" if it isn't! I once wasted a whole day in my youth trying to "troubleshoot" a complex analog op-amp circuit (multiple op-amps) before noticing there was no power on the power supply rails. So that's the first thing I check now, both voltage levels and wave forms, looking for excessive ripple or noise from bad by-pass capacitors.


It's always a good idea to perform a close physical inspection for clues as to where the problem might have originated. Holes and foil confetti from over-stressed electrolytic capacitors come to mind, as do burn marks on components and circuit boards. Be especially aware that PCB burn marks can be conductive and result in unexpected or faulty circuit operation. That can sometimes be temporarily repaired by scraping away the burned material and painting over it with clear fingernail polish. But, yes, try to find out where the smoke escaped from! And then find out why.

Ooo i didn't know those PCB burn marks could be that pesky. Good to know. Thanks
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
In my explanation I mentioned "obvious faults". My first step is a thorough visual (and often olfactory) examination.

How thorough depends on the nature of the fault and the difficulty in disassembling the unit, but examining what you can first with an unaided eyeball, and then under magnification is a good first step.

After you've fixed enough stuff you'll realise that in some significant number of cases, when you've found the fault, there was at least some physical indication. I spent some time figuring out how a front panel worked before finding a crack in a PCB I should have seen earlier.

Note: text below in grey was autocorrected to an extent that I can't figure out what I meant. I would normally correct it, but even I'm lost this time.


The other thing I failed to mention is getting a fault history. Did this happen after dropping, after lowering was dropped ok it, after years of no use, with a pop and smoke, after shorting the output, after the wrong adapter was plugged in, etc. And has someone else tried to fix it?

And prepare yourself with all the documentation you can find, with schematics if possible. Are there any days finding guides, descriptions of operation, service manuals, block diagrams, or even you tube videos of people fixing it. Oh, and any forums where people have discussed it. Google is your friend in most cases. Otherwise, perhaps the manufacturer, or even an old employee or someone who has maintained then in the past can help you.

If, as in the case of a piece of equipment I looked at a while ago, the device still functions to some extent, make sure you understand exactly what does and doesn't work. That can point you toward where to start (probably after you confirm the power rails are ok).
 
Last edited:

kellys_eye

Jun 25, 2010
6,512
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
6,512
The other thing I failed to mention is getting a fault history.
Damned right!

First question to ask is always "what was the last thing you did with it before it broke?" Then ask if the equipment has ever failed before and how).

But the number of times I've been called out and it's been a 'finger-fault' is incredible.....

One boat owner insisted his radar wasn't working - called me out, 50 mile journey, ferry ride, arrive on his boat, TURN THE TUBE BRILLIANCE UP and leave....... amongst many sounds of apologies and offers of 'money for your trouble'..... :rolleyes:
 

Rapidrob

Sep 12, 2016
11
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
11
I was a trouble shooter for 45 years and just retired. What I have seen,found,banged my head over is so simple it's almost stupid looking back.
"Power in,Power out".
I cannot count how many times you think the problem is far worse than it is.
Never assume anything.
Do you have power at the outlet? Is it right? If three phase are all phases there? Are they in sync? A bad transformer outside on the slab can and do fail.
Put the plug into another outlet,I've seen several bad,poorly wired outlets that have potential but Will NOT carry a load.
Bad power plug,same as above
Bad On/Off Switch. LED/ indicator light on,switch contacts FUBAR.
Always check a fuse with a meter,never just the eye. When in doubt,change the fuse. I have seen Many times a fuse that had mechanical failure. One end of the fuse element had broken loose from the end cap and ohmed OK but would not carry a load. This will drive you nuts!
A bad crimp on a load carrying wire lug/terminal. I too have seen this many,many times. Voltage potential is there but will not carry a load. The wire heats up, expands,the connection is lost. A real hair puller.
A bad solder joint or cold solder joint. With micro electronics this is a big problem. A too tight mounting screw bends the circuit board just enough to cause the circuit to open or do weird things due to the solder. I have seen this many times as well.
Is the Hz set to our power? 50 Hz setting on a 60 Hz line will do strange things.
Everything the others have posted as well.
 

JoeJester

May 24, 2013
3
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
3
I'm sure we've all had a moment where we have the gizmo pulled apart on our workbench we've tested all the fuses, all the components, we just can't wrap our heads around why. Then we realize it was never plugged in. Well maybe not that bad, but I've certainly had times where I should've gone with a simple troubleshooting step than I did. So I've started to develop a mental checklist of what to check.
-Power
-Proper voltage
-Fuses
-Bad capacitors

What do you guys check when you've got a no-go gizmo?

Whenever I get a new piece of equipment to repair, I use the six step troubleshooting procedure. Now after I plug it in and if there is a power indicator, if it DOES NOT energize, I would start with checking the fuse. If not, then I would open it up and check the output of the power supplies.

If there were no output, and the replacement fuse didn't blow, I would half-split my way till I found the problem.

For more information on the six step troubleshooting process, visit http://www.tech-service.net/Troubleshooting/six_step_troubleshooting_process.html
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Jun 21, 2012
4,968
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
4,968
But there's always the flip side of the argument - board/equipment swap-out. Many so-called engineers are only trained to locate a fault to board level or even whole-equipment level and do the basic swap-out. Some say this is the cost-effective method. I call it the dumbing down of the industry.
I agree, "dumbing down" is a proper description, but given the "pool" of talent available to industry and the military, there is only so much you can expect a "technician" to accomplish. Swapping out possibly bad components for "known good" components goes back to the days of vacuum tube electronics. An entire drug-store industry was based on tube testers and retail sales of replacement tubes. The average consumer didn't know squat about how a radio or a television set works, but they could "pull and replace" tubes until the problem (hopefully) went away, an expensive procedure when you don't know what you are doing.
 

JoeJester

May 24, 2013
3
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
3
Dumbing down is certain the description. The MTBF rate is way up and the cost of repairs sometimes exceeds the price of a newer model. There was a time, a long time ago, when there were technicians who made house calls to fix televisions, I did that one summer in high school, before taking a job at a local radio station assisting the Chief Engineer during my junior and senior year.

In the late 1970s and again at various times, the military reduced their curriculum because the MTBF increased, and the cost of training, equipment, and maintaining the proper inventory skyrocketed. It was easier to have a centralized repair facility. If one hundred units maintained 10 pieces of components that failed 10 times per year at best, you would still have 990 pieces tied up in inventory spread over the hundred units. Yes, it saved taxpayers money. Yes, it dumbed down the curriculum.

One problem I've noticed, even with a centralize repair, was that some alignments were required, but not authorized by the field units. I use to hear the complaints from members of the repair facility about 99 percent of the boards returned didn't have a problem. I also observed that a pcb worked in one sub assembly but not in a another sub assembly performing the same function. So, there was the reason for field adjustments, authorized or not. The process was called Troubleshooting. The first step is identifying there IS a problem.

You will always have the ID10T errors.
 

Cannonball

May 6, 2017
193
Joined
May 6, 2017
Messages
193
All these tips are good. They will all help. What if the problem is intermittent? Try flexing the pcb board. Pushing on parts with an insulated tool. This will help find cracks and loose connections from solder fatigue. Using a heat gun and freeze spray. These tips can save a lot of time.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Jan 21, 2010
25,510
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
25,510
It's obviously important to consider what the fault is. If it's "one digit does not display" then if take a totally different initial approach to "blows fuses and makes arcing noses and emits smoke".

The source is also an important distinction. Was it sitting on your workbench, and one day it just didn't turn on? Or did you get it as "for parts, not working" on eBay?

As for the question of intermittent faults, the key is often finding what triggers the fault, and then where.

As an example, I got a piece of test equipment that had it's fixed power cord cut close to the unit, and no indication of what might have been the issue, or even where it had come from.

After replacing the power cord, there was no way I'd just apply power. I made sure it was able to be connected to 240V, and configured to do so. I checked for any obvious power supply faults, and disconnected the power supply internally before applying power.

In this case there power supply was fine, and to cut things a little short, the equipment appeared to be in working condition.

However the problem soon became obvious, several of the front panel switches were inoperable, or only occasionally operating. The simplest of intermittent faults, and easily isolated.
 
Last edited:

Cannonball

May 6, 2017
193
Joined
May 6, 2017
Messages
193
Electronics has been my way of making a living and my hobby also. Troubleshooting is an art. I have known many really
GOOD technicians and no two of them troubleshoot exactly the same way.

Proof of this is in this thread. All of these responses are different and all of them are good. That is the way I see it.
 

Dimitri

Oct 29, 2017
10
Joined
Oct 29, 2017
Messages
10
Always check a fuse with a meter,never just the eye. When in doubt,change the fuse. I have seen Many times a fuse that had mechanical failure. One end of the fuse element had broken loose from the end cap and ohmed OK but would not carry a load. This will drive you nuts!
A bad crimp on a load carrying wire lug/terminal. I too have seen this many,many times. Voltage potential is there but will not carry a load. The wire heats up, expands,the connection is lost. A real hair puller.

Older post, but new here, so I hope you guys forgive me, but... This is something no one teaches and Rob is 110% right on.

Flat industrial fuses, like the ANH series routinely fail at the radii. But still make contact due to vibration loads on equipment, so they don't "blow" but instead mechanically fail. Gives you a good Ohm reading and shows no voltage drop but can't carry any load. So many (most) times if there is an "intelligent" controller monitoring it, thinks everything is good and doesn't throw an error.

Same with the round glass fuse holders, with the twist on caps, they fail but touch and don't give you any indication of why the device won't work.

Badly crimped power lugs do the same, and cannot be relied upon as being good just testing with your meter. If any discolouration or "bulging" is noticed, replace first, then repeat checking the system.

Things like these are almost easier to replace when in doubt then scratch your head for an hour wondering why something won't power on fully.
 

Terry01

Jul 5, 2017
206
Joined
Jul 5, 2017
Messages
206
All great reading and helpful info. Invaluable to someone just starting out. These things will stick in my head for years to come. I'll never get to the level of most guys here but will still fix my own stuff when I need to.
 

Braeden Hamson

Feb 18, 2016
240
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
240
Older post, but new here, so I hope you guys forgive me, but... This is something no one teaches and Rob is 110% right on.

Flat industrial fuses, like the ANH series routinely fail at the radii. But still make contact due to vibration loads on equipment, so they don't "blow" but instead mechanically fail. Gives you a good Ohm reading and shows no voltage drop but can't carry any load. So many (most) times if there is an "intelligent" controller monitoring it, thinks everything is good and doesn't throw an error.

Same with the round glass fuse holders, with the twist on caps, they fail but touch and don't give you any indication of why the device won't work.

Badly crimped power lugs do the same, and cannot be relied upon as being good just testing with your meter. If any discolouration or "bulging" is noticed, replace first, then repeat checking the system.

Things like these are almost easier to replace when in doubt then scratch your head for an hour wondering why something won't power on fully.

Makes me think I should chase problems with a voltmeter not just a continuity meter, thanks for the input.
 
Top