Win's next 10kV project, a 1us ramp

F

Fred Bloggs

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
I still sort of like the idea of a linear Marx generator. Have, say, a
dozen mosfet ramp generators, all sitting on ground. Charge their
supply caps to 800 volts apiece, then trigger them to start ramping
together, with steering diodes to "erect" the string.

Transformers might be interesting, except for the 50:1 time spread.

John

A transformer is what he might use- say a composite 1:100 with 10
primaries delivering 10A each from ~100V supply common 3kV reference for
primary and secondary and output voltage galvanic feedback connection
for linearization.
 
R

Robert Baer

Jan 1, 1970
0
John said:
Well, it will be an interesting control problem. With his numbers, the
usual resistive or even r-c gate drive stack sounds nasty. A separate
servoed gate drive for each stage sounds good to me, but that will
need some isolated mechanism for selecting the slew rates and a
(perhaps separate) way to fire them all. Fiberoptics? Batteries?

I'm sure looking forward to hearing how he solves this one.

John
I think i suggested a flyback transformer.
Adjusting the supply voltage on the inductor (primary) can adjust the
slope / slew rate; maybe to 1% without too much trouble and the
amplitude can be controlled by the gated time - again (perhaps) within 1%.
One can easily have multiple KV insulation between primary and
secondary (ies).
And multiple drivers are not that big of a deal either.
 
X

xray

Jan 1, 1970
0
Piece-a-cake ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Love it when you help, rather than just posting OT comments and
requests.

You are a prince of a guy.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Fred Bloggs wrote...
What has to be 5%, maximum deviation of best fit ramp to actual,
or total ramp time?

Both. We want a fairly linear 10kV ramp lasting 1us (or longer,
that has to programmable). More important, the 10kV/us slewing
has to be highly repeatable, because we'll be doing it repeatedly,
signal-averaging the results into small time-slot bins each time.
And then when you attain 10KV what happens?- discharge any old
way?- hold it?

That part's not critical, it can overshoot some, it can decay,
ramp quickly down, whatever.
. 13kV
. |
. .
. .
.
. |
. .------------|\ |- MOSFET stack
. | | >---|< source follower
. | .-|/ |-
. | | |
. --- '---------+
. - Vcompliance |
. | floating |
. | |
. +-------------. |
. | | |
. --- | |
. - | |
. floating | .-----|\ |-
. gate supply| | | >---|<
. | / \ .-|/ |-
. | ~~ Vgen | | |
. | \ / '---------+
. | | | |
. | | | [Rs]
. | | | |
. '------+------+------+----
. |
. ---
. ---
. | 3kV
. ------------+---------

The unspecified upper part of your drawing will be a challenge.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote...
Whats the rep rate? Can you have some jitter at the low or high end?
How much current?

I spend two days a week working in a lab that uses electrostatics.
Its probably not fast enough or controllable for yout task, but
when my boss asked for a fast 30kV ramp, I ripped a vacuum relay
out of a defibrillator , and got in a heck of a lot of trouble ...

We have another commercial box made by the company that makes our
HV supplies (Gamma High Voltage Inc.) ...

I have a drawer full of 15kV and higher, glass vacuum relays that
I've accumulated over the years. They can handle 10s of amps, and
thus could conceivably be the switching basis for a passive circuit
to create our 10kV 1us ramp. However, we need a repeatable ramp,
hopefully without significant time jitter, since we'll be signal-
averaging the data from thousands of scans. We will be digitizing
the voltage ramp, so it's possible we could adjust the time bins
after the fact. I'm not sure about contact bounce on my HV relays.
 
S

Sven Wilhelmsson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Over the years I've completed a number of projects involving
roughly 10kV voltages: fixed sources, fast-shutoff, reversible
programmable DC sources, precision-ramped AC sources at 300kHz
to 1MHz with 10kV maximum amplitude, etc.

Now I'm challenged with a creating a moderately-precise (5%),
programmable, fairly-fast 10kV ramp, of 1 to 50us in duration.
It's floating on 3kV. The 1us-long, 3kV to 13kV ramp spec is
tough, but may have a relaxed 5%-precision spec, provided it's
repeatable. :)

I did a similar thing a few years ago, however softer specs.
My approach was a stack of transformers driven in parallell
by mosfet power transistors.
The transformers were made of toroid ferrite cores. Wound by hand
with about 300 (at secondary) turns each.
What about doing it with ten of them and 500 turns each ;-)
/Sven Wilhelmsson
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...
If you look at the soar curves of a typical TO-247 fet, most of
them can dissipate kilowatts in the microsecond time range. But
I'd still expect a number of interesting blow-all-the-fets modes.

An IRFPS37N50A can dissipate about 40 kW for 10 usec.

Yes, but I'll have a stack of say 15 FETs, and so I expect a large
safety margin in the transient thermal resistance area.

Some years ago I purchased 200 IRFBG20 MOSFETs for $1.75 each
(they're still available, now at $0.96/100). These are 1kV 1A
TO-220 MOSFETs featuring moderately-low capacitance (most of the
semi houses have moved away from 1A parts for their 1kV offerings,
to 3A, etc., as the smallest ones in production). The IRFBG20's
capacitance specs are Ciss=500pF, Coss=52pF, and Crss=17pF at 25V.
See http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfbg20.pdf

The IRFBG20 is rated at 52W, and its single-pulse transient thermal
impedance (fig 11) is 0.01C/W for 1us, or 0.03C/W for 10us, so, if
we allow a 150C junction-temp jump, it can handle 15kW or 5kW, resp.
Notice the sqrt-time factor at work there, as the heat spreads out.
With 15 FETs equally sharing (another assumption), that's a 225kW
or 75kW capability for 1us or 10us, which is far more than needed.

Getting the FETs to share equally may be a difficult. My IRFBG20
FETs have their avalanche breakdown at about 1200V, so they could
theoretically handle an 5kW/1200 = 4.2A avalanche current for 10us.
Hah, that's more current than they're up for anyway! Certainly if
I'm switching anywhere from 0.5 to 2A, a short-lived FET avalanche
isn't something to fear. But if we did fear this (or, ahem, if it
failed to pass a know-nothing design review) I could parallel each
FET with a stack of say five 200V 1.5kW TVS diodes (that'd be 75
TVS for the 15 FETs, sheesh!). TVS zener diodes feature two slugs
of copper (one each side of the die) to absorb heat. The 1.5ke200
can handle 1.5kW for 1ms, or 20kW for 10us, so five in series can
handle 100kW. This is 20x more than an IRFBG20 can handle, and it
may be nearly 100x what we'll be needing for our 10kV ramp switch.
Hmm, maybe I'll look into some smaller SMD-packaged TVS parts.

One other TVS issue. The capacitance of a 200V 1.5kW TVS is 80pF,
measured at its breakdown voltage. Five in series would be 16pF,
which compares to 52pF for the IRFBG20 (I know these values change
with voltage, but this is just a quick look), so a TVS may not be
too painful in that regard. If we consider 68pF/15 for an entire
15-stage 10kV FET-switch stack, that's only 4.5pF, which doesn't
look bad either. ** Oops! ** ST's datasheet shows their 1.5ke200
to have 675pF of capacitance at 0V, which is 135pF for five. Ouch!
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sven Wilhelmsson wrote...
I did a similar thing a few years ago, however softer specs.
My approach was a stack of transformers driven in parallell
by mosfet power transistors.
The transformers were made of toroid ferrite cores. Wound by
hand with about 300 (at secondary) turns each.
What about doing it with ten of them and 500 turns each ;-)

I've designed and made lots of fast high-voltage transformers
over the years, and this is a possibility. But one serious
problem is high-voltage transformers with good insulation tend
to have high leakage inductance, which could kill my ability to
create an accurate ramp waveform. So I'm not considering that
approach seriously right now. But thanks for the suggestion.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...
Or a nice Russian hydrogen thyratron, except that Win has
to control the slew rate somehow.

Some kind of clever passive circuit?
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
xray wrote...
Love it when you help, rather than just posting OT comments
and requests. You are a prince of a guy.

Now, now. After we've struggled with it, Jim will probably
tell us he did this back in 1963, or something. Sheesh!
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jan 1, 1970
0
Joerg said:
Hello John,


Is that available online? I could only see literature on scholar.google
that quoted RadLab.

Anyway, I was thinking about those ballast triodes in earlier color TVs.
If there is any chance to find one, that is, without having to rent a
backhoe and dig through a landfill.

Regards, Joerg


The 6BK4? I have two NOS 6BK4C/6EL4A Westinghouse tubes on hand for
$5.00 (US) each. they are available from a lot of surplus dealers, and
the bunch over on could probably fill a
dump truck with them.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
xray wrote...

Now, now. After we've struggled with it, Jim will probably
tell us he did this back in 1963, or something. Sheesh!

I was being facetious. My HV experience is limited...

Tech in MHD lab while at MIT, a little ignitron, thyratron, spark gap
stuff at 30KV, just on/off. Capacitor bank as big as a room ;-)
Smear camera motor driver.

Ignition systems for automobiles... many conventional and CD designs.

...Jim Thompson
 
S

Sven Wilhelmsson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield said:
Sven Wilhelmsson wrote...

I've designed and made lots of fast high-voltage transformers
over the years, and this is a possibility. But one serious
problem is high-voltage transformers with good insulation tend
to have high leakage inductance, which could kill my ability to
create an accurate ramp waveform. So I'm not considering that
approach seriously right now. But thanks for the suggestion.

Thats exactly why I used a _stack_ of toroid ferrites.
Each of them does not need internal HV-insulation, and toroids have low
leakage inductance. The primary can be an insulated rod through all the
toroids. Thats the HV-insulation.
But, as indicated above, the cost of handwork can be high.
/Sven
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...

Some kind of clever passive circuit?

Do you need continuous slew rate adjustment? A few relays could give
you a number of steps.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jan 1, 1970
0
Over the years I've completed a number of projects involving
roughly 10kV voltages: fixed sources, fast-shutoff, reversible
programmable DC sources, precision-ramped AC sources at 300kHz
to 1MHz with 10kV maximum amplitude, etc.

Now I'm challenged with a creating a moderately-precise (5%),
programmable, fairly-fast 10kV ramp, of 1 to 50us in duration.
It's floating on 3kV. The 1us-long, 3kV to 13kV ramp spec is
tough, but may have a relaxed 5%-precision spec, provided it's
repeatable. :)

It's been a lo-o-o-ong time since I've lurked around a TV repair shop.
Wonder how fast HV regulator tubes like 6BD4/6BK4 can be pushed?

...Jim Thompson
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Larkin wrote...
Do you need continuous slew rate adjustment? A few relays
could give you a number of steps.

That could work.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
Now I'm challenged with a creating a moderately-precise (5%),
programmable, fairly-fast 10kV ramp, of 1 to 50us in duration.
It's floating on 3kV. The 1us-long, 3kV to 13kV ramp spec is
tough, but may have a relaxed 5%-precision spec, provided it's
repeatable. :)

ASCII Art:



pivot 0================0===============0
! # !
Copper plate ================ ### ! ! ! ! ! Piston
Gap ### ! ======= ! assembly
Copper plate ================ ### ===== =====
Non conductive ! ! ### ! !
mounting ! ! ### X-X Steam valve
. ......### / \
. . ### ! ! Boiler
. . ### -------
. . Conductive
. . mounting
. .
. .
cam operated . . Lead wires
switch ! . GND
--- .
3KV -----O O-----+--------------- To load



Or, perhaps:

Some ceramic capacitors have decreasing capacitance for increasing
voltage. You may be able to use these to straighten out an RC ramp
reducing the problem to just one of switching.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Sven Wilhelmsson wrote...
Thats exactly why I used a _stack_ of toroid ferrites.
Each of them does not need internal HV-insulation, and toroids
have low leakage inductance. The primary can be an insulated
rod through all the toroids. Thats the HV-insulation.
Hmm.

But, as indicated above, the cost of handwork can be high.

I don't mind that part - my technician will do it. :)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jan 1, 1970
0
Robert Baer wrote...
I think i suggested a flyback transformer.
Adjusting the supply voltage on the inductor (primary) can
adjust the slope / slew rate; maybe to 1% without too much
trouble and the amplitude can be controlled by the gated
time - again (perhaps) within 1%. One can easily have
multiple kV insulation between primary and secondary (ies).
And multiple drivers are not that big of a deal either.

I like the constant-current into a capacitive load that a
flyback coil / transformer can deliver. If the transformer
has a 10:1 step-up ratio I could use 1kV MOSFETs to switch
5 to 10A on the primary... But I keep worrying about the
transformer's leakage inductance. If the secondary + load
was say 60pF total, then that'd have to be less than 17uH
for a say 5MHz bandwidth. Hmm, 17uH doesn't look so hard.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Jan 1, 1970
0
[email protected] wrote...

I have a drawer full of 15kV and higher, glass vacuum relays that
I've accumulated over the years. They can handle 10s of amps, and
thus could conceivably be the switching basis for a passive circuit
to create our 10kV 1us ramp. However, we need a repeatable ramp,
hopefully without significant time jitter, since we'll be signal-
averaging the data from thousands of scans. We will be digitizing
the voltage ramp, so it's possible we could adjust the time bins
after the fact. I'm not sure about contact bounce on my HV relays.

How about a HY11 or similar hydrogen thyratron. ~20kV anode voltage,
1600A peak anode current, and fits in the palm of your hand? Plus a
passive shaping network, of course.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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