Question for Win Hill

K

Kryten

Jan 1, 1970
0
Al Borowski said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I met a guy with an Electronics degree (c. 1997ish) who said he has never
touched a soldering iron.

He thought it was crazy too.

He said he got flustered when he went to interviews.

He never got a job in electronics, and is sorting mail for minimum wage.

I said "Well gee, I wouldn't give you a job either. You obviously don't have
any drive to use the knowledge you have spent 3 years learning, you're so
dumb you haven't figured out this is a major issue, you haven't even got a
plan to address that issue, and you're so bone idle you haven't even built
so much as a crystal set. I don't think any employer would be impressed to
employ an EE that hasn't built anything significant, anymore than a surgeon
who hasn't even practised on a cadaver."

I think he saw the point, but then promptly went back to doing nothing about
it.

He still tinkers around with little .net projects, hoping somehow this will
get him a job.
I point out that taking many months to set up an internet equivalent of a
lemonade stand won't cut it.
Employers want to see you can do stuff under fire, or at least get a 2.1
degree in a full range of knowledge.

Oh well, I can only kick his butt in the right direction.
If he won't use his feet, he doesn't deserve the job.

K.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
What many schools miss is the fact that concurrent
hands-on work greatly enhances the understanding of the theory. If the
theory is just equations and stuff, without physical insight, it's soon
forgotten.

"Chinese proverb" time:

I hear, and forget.
I see, and remember.
I do, and understand.
 
B

BFoelsch

Jan 1, 1970
0
Kryten said:
I met a guy with an Electronics degree (c. 1997ish) who said he has never
touched a soldering iron.

He thought it was crazy too.

He said he got flustered when he went to interviews.

He never got a job in electronics, and is sorting mail for minimum wage.

I said "Well gee, I wouldn't give you a job either. You obviously don't have
any drive to use the knowledge you have spent 3 years learning, you're so
dumb you haven't figured out this is a major issue, you haven't even got a
plan to address that issue, and you're so bone idle you haven't even built
so much as a crystal set. I don't think any employer would be impressed to
employ an EE that hasn't built anything significant, anymore than a surgeon
who hasn't even practised on a cadaver."

I think he saw the point, but then promptly went back to doing nothing about
it.

He still tinkers around with little .net projects, hoping somehow this will
get him a job.
I point out that taking many months to set up an internet equivalent of a
lemonade stand won't cut it.
Employers want to see you can do stuff under fire, or at least get a 2.1
degree in a full range of knowledge.

Oh well, I can only kick his butt in the right direction.
If he won't use his feet, he doesn't deserve the job.

K.

Well, you have pointed up a related, but separate issue; people who somehow
think that a engineering degree is the goal, separate and apart from the
study and knowledge it takes to achieve it.

In my retirement, I work part time as an instructor, teaching primarily PLC
techniques and programming. Every now and again we get into a discussion
that involves some sort of engineering calculation, for example, we might be
discussing the issue of leakage current through an output module. I am
absolutely flabbergasted at the number of recent graduates who do not
remember the formula for capacitive reactance, because they "learned it four
years ago," or even better,, those who aren't comfortable with numbering
systems and codes. I would guess that 10% of the students I get are
comfortable with the fact that FFFFh equals 1111 1111 1111 1111 binary
and -1 decimal, without using a calculator to do the conversions.

Another interesting attitude I frequently encounter, which may be peculiar
to the PLC situation, is the desire to fit square pegs into round holes
because "I really understand square pegs." Most American PLCs use, among
others, a form of programming called ladder logic, which is dead simple and
is in reality "Visual Boolean." Ladder is great for what used to be called
"Mickey Mouse Logic," manipulating messy truth tables one bit at a time.
Many PLCs also support other languages; structured text, which is frequently
similar to Pascal (!!), Function Blocks, Grafcet, Sequential Function
Chart, etc. etc. Each has a sweet spot. What is absolutely amazing is the
number of recent graduates who want to do everything in Structured Text,
because they are good at C++. The fact that there is a simpler, more
efficient way is rejected, because it involves learning something new.

Now, this is not to condemn all recent graduates. Many are indeed excellent.
Now that I think of it, I guess what I am complaining about is the number of
recent graduates who apparently studied "to pass the test," rather than to
learn the material, and who got away with it for four years.
 
T

Tony Williams

Jan 1, 1970
0
Winfield Hill said:
Tony Williams wrote...
I have the first three of his articles in a stack and expect the
fourth final article to arrive soon. I've glanced at them, but
clearly some concentrated study is in order. Hopefully he has
addressed two of my four issues above (the two most important to
audio amplifier designers). I have recommended his articles to
others (hoping they'll check them out). Such as yourself, Tony?

Well, so far I'm barely understanding a lot of it. His main
intent is to develop MOSFET models that factor-in their
thermal characteristics during simulation of audio power
amplifiers. The need to model the sub-threshold region is
mentioned, but only in the context of distortion. Since he
is using lateral power MOSFETs he does not need to bother to
address and/or model the temperature effects on the bias.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Jan 1, 1970
0
BFoelsch said:
Dunno. Just hit "Reply to group" without looking. I'll behave next
time......


Or one engineer who has both experience and theoretical knowledge.


You are of course correct, but had the marketing department specified
the desired light output you would certainly have been able to
calculate the required circuit parameters.

Again, my original post took the position of devil's advocate. A
successful engineer must possess both theoretical and practical
knowledge. I was just commenting on my observation that, in the case
of many EE curricula, the pendulum has swung over 50 years from the
"too little theory" side to the current "too little practice" side.

Not sure I can agree with that. Curriculum's have always been lots of
theory, but the theory is often irrelevant. Lets consider Maxwell's
Equations in their full glory. What actually % of EE's design wave
guides or antennas? 0.1%?

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that BFoelsch <[email protected]
his.net> wrote (in said:
I would guess that
10% of the students I get are comfortable with the fact that FFFFh
equals 1111 1111 1111 1111 binary and -1 decimal, without using a
calculator to do the conversions.

Introduce the others to 1111 0000 1111 1111!
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
Today we have the math tools, but we still have transistors whose beta
varies by a factor of 10, and lots of other unknowns.

But the gm doesn't. Current gain is a measure of a defect; base current
should be zero.

[Ducks!]
 
M

mc

Jan 1, 1970
0
Well, you have pointed up a related, but separate issue; people who
somehow
think that a engineering degree is the goal, separate and apart from the
study and knowledge it takes to achieve it.

That is absolutely normative for business degrees (MBA, etc.)...
In my retirement, I work part time as an instructor, teaching primarily
PLC
techniques and programming. Every now and again we get into a discussion
that involves some sort of engineering calculation, for example, we might
be
discussing the issue of leakage current through an output module. I am
absolutely flabbergasted at the number of recent graduates who do not
remember the formula for capacitive reactance, because they "learned it
four
years ago," or even better,, those who aren't comfortable with numbering
systems and codes.

The key intuition there, which a lot of people miss, is that a formula is
just like a schematic - it reveals how something works. For many people, a
formula is just a recipe for doing a calculation; they don't remember it
because they don't think of it as working knowledge.
Another interesting attitude I frequently encounter, which may be peculiar
to the PLC situation, is the desire to fit square pegs into round holes
because "I really understand square pegs."

Yes... :)

Software technology is full of this.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Jan 1, 1970
0
lot of

I'd say not so much impossible or impractical, but so time and labor
intensive that after learning how to do it 'the long way', with the
math, it then became much more practical to do it seat-of-the-pants
using one's own sound judgment. That was the art of it.

Don Lancaster said, "an hour in the library is worth a week in the lab",
and learning from others' mistakes was prudent and timesaving. (or did
he say a day in the lab? - whatever.)
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <[email protected]>
wrote (in <[email protected]>) about 'Question
for Win Hill/ Athlon64', on Sat, 1 Jan 2005:

"Chinese proverb" time:

I hear, and forget.
I see, and remember.
I do, and understand.

I went to lunch at a Chinese restaurant recently, and my fortune cookie
fortune was something like "you will receive something of great value
soon." So I played the super lotto - and won absolutely nothing. :-/

I wish the fortune cookies would contain more "Chinese proverbs" and
less fortunes.

And no more lotto numbers at the bottom!
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
pernews.com>) about 'Question for Win Hill/ Athlon64', on Sun, 2 Jan
2005:
I went to lunch at a Chinese restaurant recently, and my fortune cookie
fortune was something like "you will receive something of great value
soon." So I played the super lotto - and won absolutely nothing. :-/

But you received a lesson of great value - do not trust fortune cookie
messages. (;-)
 
B

BFoelsch

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
pernews.com>) about 'Question for Win Hill/ Athlon64', on Sun, 2 Jan
2005:

But you received a lesson of great value - do not trust fortune cookie
messages. (;-)

Whenever I go into a Chinese restaurant, I always get the same fortune,
"Generous soul across table pays for dinner to-nite."

Inkjet printers are great. The hard part was simulating the cheesy font
found on genuine fortunes............................
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Don Lancaster said, "an hour in the library is worth a week in the lab",
and learning from others' mistakes was prudent and timesaving. (or did
he say a day in the lab? - whatever.)


The other one I like is...

"One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions"
- Wernher von Braun


John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
pernews.com>) about 'Question for Win Hill/ Athlon64', on Sun, 2 Jan
2005:

But you received a lesson of great value - do not trust fortune cookie
messages. (;-)


Hey, I just bought a Chinese fortune cookie factory, from Mr Louie
himself.

http://www.chcp.org/fortune.html


John
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <[email protected]>

If second breakdown is possible, the fact that the signal spends a lot
of time 10 or more dB below peak level is irrelevant. It only needs to
hit peak level for a few ms, and BANG!

For thermal overstress caused by a reactive load, the low duty cycle IS
relevant, but remember that the heat sinks are also designed with that
duty cycle in mind!


It is highly unprofessional to simplistically reduce the size of the
heatsink based on the statistics of audio waveforms. Serious audio
designers know that one must simultaneously reduce the size of the
power transformer and the filter caps to maintain the coveted
peak-music-power rating.

John
 
J

John Woodgate

Jan 1, 1970
0
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
It is highly unprofessional to simplistically reduce the size of the
heatsink based on the statistics of audio waveforms. Serious audio
designers know that one must simultaneously reduce the size of the power
transformer and the filter caps to maintain the coveted peak-music-power
rating.

Heresy!!!!!

By all means reduce the transformer, but the filter caps MUST be each
100000000 uF, military grade, gold-plated if you can't get mithril, and
at least six in parallel.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Jan 1, 1970
0
John Woodgate said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
pernews.com>) about 'Question for Win Hill/ Athlon64', on Sun, 2 Jan
2005: :-/

But you received a lesson of great value - do not trust fortune cookie
messages. (;-)

Yeah, heh-heh. Another Chinese restaurant we went to (there were three
of us), we got done and the waitress give us our bill with the three
fortune cookies. Only one out of the three had a fortune! I learned
not to trust the cookie even having a fortune! :p
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

Jan 1, 1970
0
BFoelsch said:
Whenever I go into a Chinese restaurant, I always get the same fortune,
"Generous soul across table pays for dinner to-nite."

Inkjet printers are great. The hard part was simulating the cheesy font
found on genuine fortunes............................

You sleazy little weasel, you! I'll have to try that sometime!

We go to a place (http://www.todai.com/) that's "upscale" at $20 a
person and that's at lunch, it's even more at dinner. Luckily, I've
lately been able to fenagle lunches there with one of our vendors, who
foots the bill. Well, he ought to! We pay his company over a hundred
thou a month! ;-)
 
J

John Larkin

Jan 1, 1970
0
Yeah, heh-heh. Another Chinese restaurant we went to (there were three
of us), we got done and the waitress give us our bill with the three
fortune cookies. Only one out of the three had a fortune! I learned
not to trust the cookie even having a fortune! :p

Most fortune cookies nowadays don't contain true fortunes. I call them
aphorism cookies.


John
 
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