[Eeyore]

Yep, about as stupid as England depending on India's, jatropha crops.

Where did you get that idea ?

Graham

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Dan Bloomquist wrote:




Where did you get that idea ?

Not mine, yours. But keep acting like a saint..........

Who do you think you are fooling??????

 

[Eeyore]

Not mine, yours. But keep acting like a saint..........

Not my idea.

INDIA is using jatropha to produce bio-diesel. Not England.

Graham

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Not my idea.

INDIA is using jatropha to produce bio-diesel. Not England.

See, 'D1-BP Fuel Crops Ltd'.

 

[Martin Brown]

See, 'D1-BP Fuel Crops Ltd'.

Yes, a UK company is doing the R&D, but the crop will not grow in the
UK. It requires tropical conditions and is drought tolerant (and
likely to be a horrid invasive weed if planted in the wrong place).
Their planting list is online.

http://www.d1plc.com/agronomyPlanting.php

I hope their chosen cultivar isn't as quite nasty as some of the other
jatropha species. J. Urens for instance.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[BradGuth]

How bizarre !

Graham

You got something better to do with all of those dead zone jellyfish?
If so, let us hear it from wizard Graham.
- Brad Guth -

 

[BradGuth]

Expensive, who cares? We're talking about the
ENVIRONMENT, we can't worry about filty lucre.
What are you, a greedy Republican?

Let the gov't fund it, won't cost a farthing! That's
why we need visionaries like Al Gore, bold men
not afraid to take on the special interests, leading
by example.

I agree, that our badly failing environment needs that do or die kick
in the butt, whereas the all electric car is technically doable,
especially with the enviro safe and clean h2o2/aluminum battery, along
with as much global renewable energy that's put in charge of producing
the h2o2 and aluminum.

However, there's no such thing as 100% safe energy, or even of those
products made with said energy. I'm certain there will be those
deaths associated with getting fusion energy up and running,
especially if any of that required bulk or volume of He3 is derived
from our moon.

Klondike III wind project: tower failre likely due to excessive
torque.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2720796920070828
Chadd Mitchell, 35, was killed on Saturday afternoon when a 242-foot-
tall tower he was working on toppled over, said a dispatcher for the
Sherman County Sheriff's Department.

Mitchell, of Goldendale, Washington, was working at the top of the
tower -- essentially a hollow tube -- when it buckled. A second worker
in the tube was injured and a third worker on the ground was not hurt,
according to The Oregonian newspaper. Federal officials are
investigating the incident, it said.

"the turbine blades were manufactured in Denmark and the towers in the
United States"

"The specific tower, W-1, was located at the easternmost row of towers
in the Klondike III project"
-

Oddly there's no specific mention of the tower engineering firm or of
those in charge of having built such towers.

-
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200708300438DOWJONESDJONLINE000539_FORTUNE5.htm
Jim Johnson, a mechanical engineer with the federal National Renewable
Energy Lab's wind technology center, discounted the possibility of a
structurally deficient tower.

"It's not impossible, but it's extremely unlikely for a tower to be at
fault on its own and to buckle and fall," he said.

But Johnson also found it difficult to come up with a scenario under
which the blades turned quickly enough and the braking systems came on
suddenly enough to torque or vibrate and buckle the tower.

Paul Gipe of the Ontario Sustainable Energy Association in Toronto
maintains the only worldwide database on wind tower deaths.

According to his figures, there have been 33 previous deaths
worldwide associated with wind towers since 1975, with 18 of them in
the United States.
The most recent accidental death took place when a worker fell 210
feet in Chandler, Minn. in 2005
Last year, a wind gust bent and twisted a tower at the Condon
Wind Project in Gilliam County, but there were no injuries associated
with that accident.
-

Obviously the rotational braking torque was unavoidably 100%
transferred into twisting that support tower, and with that tonnage of
blades in motion along with maximum braking applied would have placed
all of that rotational energy into the tower itself. Why such blades
have to be so decelerated to such a complete stop and so quickly is
clearly not understood. I'd like a look-see at the mechanical specs
and results of subsequent testing of those towers, which obviously had
little if any structural reserve to work safely within such torque
issues.

Americans seem genetically mutated as to specialize in cutting corners
at every opportunity, and then some. Hopefully our future of He3
fusion derived energy will become as robust and reliable as my LSE-CM/
ISS. Otherwise, we know that most anything of fossil and yellowcake
derived energy is birth to grave deadly in more spendy, lethal and
toxic ways than we can count, not to mention the ongoing collateral
damage and carnage of the innocent related to 9/11 and our ongoing
efforts at taking control of Iracq's oil.
- Brad Guth -

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Yes, a UK company is doing the R&D, but the crop will not grow in the
UK. It requires tropical conditions and is drought tolerant (and
likely to be a horrid invasive weed if planted in the wrong place).
Their planting list is online.

http://www.d1plc.com/agronomyPlanting.php

I hope their chosen cultivar isn't as quite nasty as some of the other
jatropha species. J. Urens for instance.

Yes, I know where the cultivation will take place. But this is about the
product's destination. And how nice for D1-BP that there are bio
requirements legislated to take effect starting in 2009 for the UK.

But even more important is the paltry impact on world demand for liquid
fuels that these crop fuels will have. The world demands 175 quads/year
of liquids today and that is expected to grow to 225 quads/year in
twenty years. I doubt we will see more than a quad/year net from
biofuels in that same span.

Jatropha is a labor intensive crop and the working class that supports
this endeavor will see little, if any, of the booty.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Best, Dan.

 

[BradGuth]

The not so little h2o2 + fossil/biofuel alternative that seriously
could.

Sevenhundred Elves:
Please, tell me again what problems you aim to solve with your proposed
use of H2O2. I believe one valid point of it is to reduce the amount of
nitrous compounds in the exhaust. What else do you have?

By way of creating and utilizing h2o2, I do believe we're solving a
good number of energy and environmental problems by simply allowing
the best available technology of liquid fuels to prevail.

Just to start off with, it'll offer lots of compact energy as derived
from a fairly small radial turbine or rotary like engine (I'd think
partly if not mostly ceramic).

There's obviously no atmospheric intake issues, and therefore there's
none of those wasted intake, compression or exhaust strokes.

There's an absolute minimum of toxic and acidic CO2 exhaust fumes
generated and zero worth of NOx, especially nifty whenever having to
operate within a tunnel or in most other tight quarters (obviously
zero toxic when on battery).

There shouldn't be any sulphur unless intentionally kept within the
small amount of fossil fuel or added to whatever biofuel.

It's extremely smooth and quiet operating, especially stealth as a
fully hybrid AWD configuration.

It will run nearly as well under water or under mud (though at geratly
reduced empg) as it would function even better than 100 empg in a
vacuum (DoD and even NASA should seriously love this kick ass
Hummer).

The full minute+ and likely up to possibly six minutes worth of hybrid
burst or peak wheel energy of delivering a combined 1000 shp is
perfectly doable within existing spec, along with otherwise as much as
a sustained 250 shp for those extended hauling applications, and
otherwise the combined 125 SHP worth of a continuous AWD rating.

Nearly any kind of fossil or biofuel alternatives will suit the needs
of getting the most clean energy bang per kg of whatever fuel and
h2o2.

It is relatively end-user safe and sane because, us dumbfounded
village idiot humans will never see or much less touch the h2o2.

h2o2 could also directly provide for the 12.5 kwhr of hybrid battery
energy (optional 25 kwhr).

The makings of h2o2 can be every bit as green and/or as renewable as
you'd care to make them.

There'd soon be 85% less fossil and/or biofuels consumed for such
formats of h2o2 composite hybrids, allowing for much less of fossil
fuel having to be extracted from deep within Earth, or as liquid fuel
processed out of coal, extracted from oily sand and/or created via
biofuel alternatives, and perhaps eventually zero of such imported
(including from Canada or Mexico). The all inclusive fossil related
environmental impact would soon thereafter drop off to a dull roar
without having to infringe upon those pesky old atmospheric burning
engines. Meanwhile, spendy Coal gassification fuels would burn very
nicely along with h2o2, and most of our more iffy/lethal coal mines
could be shut down until fully robotic operations are established,
thus much fewer industry related injuries and deaths to deal with and
having to pay dearly for.

In addition to what I've just contributed on behalf of using h2o2,
there's also a little something positive and thus constructive to
being said about the renewable energy surplus going into any number of
biofuel or even on behalf of coal gassification productions.

Therefore, I'll further share as to whatever renewable energy that's
in surplus can just as easily become diverted into making the likes of
LH2, LOx and h2o2 (you pick), plus accommodating whatever fossil or
biofuel productions. You nice folks should also appreciate that we're
currently pillaging and raping mother Earth's oceans for a nifty tally
of extracting 100 million tonnes/year of seafood (that's not including
global sport and subsistence fishing), and since we've been
artificially polluting via our human soot saturated CO2, NOx and
various other nifty toxins, as having created a global dimming fiasco,
plus indirectly a good number of and ever expanding volumes of those
ocean dead zones getting warmer and deeper by the year, whereas such I
was wondering how much biofuel could be obtained from extracting and
processing a billion tonnes per year worth of those nasty jellyfish
that thrive within such ocean dead zones.

There are a few other advantages that I'll have to recall from
previous research and subsequent deductive notions, that by rights
should pan out in favor of what h2o2 plus a little fossil or whatever
biofuel can provide as our best liquid energy compromise (short of
those ET boat loads of methane from Titan, and some viable method of
exporting our sooty NOx and CO2 off-world).
- Brad Guth

 

[Eeyore]

You got something better to do with all of those dead zone jellyfish?

No. They're not really good for much, being mainly water after all.

If so, let us hear it from wizard Graham.

If you learnt some basic science you'd stop suggesting such totally halfwitted
ideas in the first place.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

The world demands 175 quads/year of liquids today and that is expected to
grow to 225 quads/year in
twenty years.

Expected to grow that much only by those who are incapable of thinking nothing
can ever change.

The EU is already in the process of introducing astonishing standards for fuel
comsumption.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Jatropha is a labor intensive crop

Bwahahahahahaha !

It thrives in the wild like a weed.

Graham

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Dan Bloomquist wrote:




Expected to grow that much only by those who are incapable of thinking nothing
can ever change.

Where is your paper?

The EU is already in the process of introducing astonishing standards for fuel
comsumption.

Yea, like biofuel??????

Nice snip you have there, and accuse others of the same.

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

Dan Bloomquist wrote:




Bwahahahahahaha !

It thrives in the wild like a weed.

And, you never followed up on a post, from a long time ago, on this very
topic.

Nice claim you have there....... Nice snip about the working class.

Do you hear your brain rattle when you fool yourself? Maybe, harvest
h202 from Venus brad, will be you sock puppet....

I don't see 'Eric Gisin' sucking on your shorts like you would have wanted.

You are such a looser.

But, keep claiming otherwise.......

 

[Eeyore]

Where is your paper?

Where is your brain.

Have you really not heard of the drive for improved vehicle efficiency ? Have you
not even noticed inproving mpg numbers ? Of course the USA is fairly immune from
these advances.

Yea, like biofuel??????

No. Like 160 grams of CO2 / km.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

And, you never followed up on a post, from a long time ago, on this very
topic.

Care to remind me what it was ?

Nice claim you have there....... Nice snip about the working class.

The rural Indian population will undoubtedly be very happy for the additional
emplyment jatropha cultivation will provide. India's hardly short of the
necessary workforce.

Do you hear your brain rattle when you fool yourself? Maybe, harvest
h202 from Venus brad, will be you sock puppet....

I don't see 'Eric Gisin' sucking on your shorts like you would have wanted.

You are such a looser.

But, keep claiming otherwise.......

I notice you can't refute the fact that jatropha grows wild with no attention
and even does so quite happily on marginal land.

Graham

 

[Martin Brown]

Yes, I know where the cultivation will take place. But this is about the
product's destination. And how nice for D1-BP that there are bio
requirements legislated to take effect starting in 2009 for the UK.

Yes. Shipping the stuff half way round the world to use it in the UK
makes no sense at all.

The only good thing that can be said for cultivating jatropha as a bio
fuel in the tropics is that it probably does provide a reasonable net
return on the minimal energy input needed to grow it. That is not so
clear for bio ethanol production from grain at temperate latitudes.
And anyway turning useful quality food into a poor fuel is insane on
multiple levels unless you are a grain farmer. Some calculations
suggest that the net energy returns from bio-ethanol production may be
less than zero when you include all the energy costs of industrial
scale planting, fertiliser, irrigation, harvesting, fermentation and
distillation.

But even more important is the paltry impact on world demand for liquid
fuels that these crop fuels will have. The world demands 175 quads/year
of liquids today and that is expected to grow to 225 quads/year in
twenty years. I doubt we will see more than a quad/year net from
biofuels in that same span.

Jatropha is a labor intensive crop and the working class that supports
this endeavor will see little, if any, of the booty.

Of course. I don't envy the poor sods that will have to work the crop.
But I guess compared to something really chemically nasty like
harvesting cashewnuts it will be a walk in the park. I hope it doesn't
prove to be the invasive pernicious weed in some places that my
instinct says it might be. I have grown some of them in a UK
greenhouse - a few species are quite ornamental and will flower when
still small...

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

Expected to grow that much only by those who are incapable of thinking nothing
can ever change.

His number seems quite reasonable to me. I can't see the USA giving up
on ugly monster gas guzzling cars until either Washington takes a
direct hit from a category 5 hurricane or oil becomes seriously scarce
and expensive. Both of these are long way into the future (unless
Saudia Arabia falls prey to Al Qaida).

Even modest growth in car use in India and China would take the
numbers up at least that far.

The EU is already in the process of introducing astonishing standards for fuel
comsumption.

My saloon car in the UK has its maximum fuel efficiency at a speed
just above the national speed limit. It has a lifetime fuel
consumption over 4 years of 56mpg (diesel). The new model is a less
appealing shape, but with a 6 speed gearbox and aerodynamic tweaks is
a few percent better still on paper.

US cars still struggle to do 20mpg, and half decent acceleration is
rare in vehicles with less than 4L engines.

The EU attempts to encourage and sponsor wind farms is a joke though.
I pass 3 big ones most days on the A19 and 2 of them are typically out
of service (sometimes all 3). I can't remember when I last saw all of
them turning. They are being built to qualify for grants and not to
generate electricity!

There are some better maintained ones up at the Nissan plant in
Sunderland. 5 out of 6 of those are usually running. But the one that
failed spectacularly in flames a couple of years ago closed the road.
One of the major UK offshore windfarms isn't connected to the grid at
all becuase the dozy b*stards did not bury the cable.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Eeyore]

Yes. Shipping the stuff half way round the world to use it in the UK
makes no sense at all.

No more or less sense than shipping almost *anything* of decent value half way
round the world surely ?

The only good thing that can be said for cultivating jatropha as a bio
fuel in the tropics is that it probably does provide a reasonable net
return on the minimal energy input needed to grow it. That is not so
clear for bio ethanol production from grain at temperate latitudes.

And especially not from corn, which is a poor feedstock choice for ethanol
production.

And anyway turning useful quality food into a poor fuel is insane on
multiple levels unless you are a grain farmer.

The price of surplus grain is currently so low that it's become economic to burn
it as a fuel in conventional space heating applications.

Some calculations suggest that the net energy returns from bio-ethanol
production may be
less than zero when you include all the energy costs of industrial
scale planting, fertiliser, irrigation, harvesting, fermentation and
distillation.

And those calculations are invariably based on 'worst case' assumptions.

Jatropha needs no fertiliser AIUI nor much in the way of irrigation. It also
only needs to be planted the once. In India, the harvesting is likely to use
plenty of manpower as opposed to fossil fuel.

A sensible location for bio-ethanol plants would be next to power stations. They
could use the waste heat from the cooling cycle to power the fermentation and
distillation. This would require an element of 'joined-up thinking' though
which is a very rare commodity.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Of course. I don't envy the poor sods that will have to work the crop.

Expect Dan to claim they will be 'like slaves'. This is what he claims about the
Brazilian bio-ethanol workers.

Graham