What does "TRUE RMS" mean?

P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"David Eather is a **** "
The file is 4Mbytes - hardly "big" even if you're on dial up.


** On dial up, it takes 10 to 15 minutes to receive a 4Mbyte file.

In my case it takes 3 minutes - which is far too long to wait to get a pile
of irrelevant bullshit.



.... Phil
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Larkin" wrote in message
All you do with fast ADC samples is square, average, root, display.
Autozero on the front end maybe. The only serious mistake you can
make is letting the ADC clip on peaks, and that's easily detected.

I'm doing that with a PIC, but for power line frequencies. I take the square
of each sample and add that to a running sum of squares, using integer math.
Then when I want to display the true RMS, I just shift the result to, 16
bits and then take a quick square root which is about 8 bits, which is still
0.4% accurate. My samples are typically 100 to 200 mSec. But I also
calculate the true RMS value of much longer pulses, such as are encountered
in circuit breaker testing for short and long time delays, which can be
anywhere from about 0.5 seconds to 200 seconds. So I still just maintain the
total of squares, which may be an unsigned long 32 bit number, which is
enough to hold 29 minutes of 10 bit data at 2400 samples per second.

This is needed because the current can vary during the test, due to heating
and other effects, so the breaker tends to react to the true RMS value of
the entire waveform, especially if it has a thermal delay element. Reclosers
are even more challenging, because their impedance changes by a factor as
high as 3, causing a huge difference in the RMS value of the current from
the beginning to the end of its stroke. This is an effect of low voltage
testing, and the change would be negligible on an actual fault with 14.4 kV.
Series resistance can be added to reduce the drop-off effect, but only so
much, so the RMS value must be computed for the entire waveform. This has
been shown to match the expected trip times very accurately.
The analog RMS converters are expensive and usually have mediocre
bandwidth. The wideband ones (like 100 KHz or so) wind up having
frequency compensation tweaks. All that's a lot of work to replace
some essentially free firmware.
There are lots of "True RMS" DVMs around, with analog converters
in the front end, that are good to 0.03% or whatever on DC but are
rotten on AC, both accuracy and frequency range... numbers like
1% and 1 KHz.

I chose my Fluke 45 multimeter as the best choice for true RMS reading at
the time I bought it about 20 years ago. It has an accuracy of 0.2% + 100
counts from 50 Hz to 10 kHz, but that means that on the 100 mV range,
specified for 15,000 to 99,999 counts, it may be an additional 100/15000 or
0.67%. It seems to be actually much better than that, although it has an
offset of about 0.240 mV with the input shorted. I have been using this to
calibrate my Ortmasters, which are rated at 1% from full scale ranges of 50A
to 10,000A, using a 1000A 100 mV shunt. So when I calibrate the 50A range, I
am reading about 5.000 mV, which could be as much as 100 counts off, or 2%.
The Ortmaster typically shows an offset of 0.10 A on that range, which is
only 10 uV. So I may need to get a better standard!

The Fluke 8520A has a 1 year accuracy of 0.15% reading plus 0.05% FS, which
in this case is 1.99999 V, so the true error is as much as 1 mV. So its
accuracy at 5 mV is only really 20%! No winner here.

The Fluke 289 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.3% + 25 counts, 45-65 Hz, on the
50.000 mV range, which gives me an effective accuracy on a 5 mV reading of
0.8%. An improvement, but I'd really like 0.5% or better.

The Fluke 8808A is similar to the Fluke 45, but it does not seem to be true
RMS.

The Fluke 87 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.7% +2 digits and 0.1 mV
resolution.

The HP 3478 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.46% + 163 counts for the 300.000 mV
range.

I really have not found a meter that is significantly better than the Fluke
45. Any suggestions?

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"P E Schoen"

The Fluke 289 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.3% + 25 counts, 45-65 Hz,

** This spec refers to sine wave inputs in the narrow range of 45 to 65
z - so it really only gives you the AC voltage accuracy at mains
frequencies.

True RMS accuracy is another ball game where measurement bandwidth is
everything.

For the 289, Fluke claim a 100kHz bandwidth which is the 3dB down bandwidth
at some level. The frequency response of the RMS to DC converters used is
level dependant, falling at lower levels, the full spec is in the handbook.

Scopes like the Rigol supply true RMS readings of the wave on the screen
which are pretty good, long as the bandwidth of the signal does not exceed
that of the timebase range in use.


.... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Fields"


** Thankfully, it only takes milliseconds to delete your asinine posts.


.... Phil
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"Phil Allison" wrote in message
"John Larkin"
** Try doing the costing and making it work on a 9v battery at under
1mA drain.
DMMs with " true rms " sell for under $50.

Much depends on the frequency response you need. For most power line
frequency applications, a low cost, low power PIC can be used to sample at
up to about 50 kHz, so even a 10 kHz signal can be read with reasonable
accuracy. So the basic components for the computed true-RMS function
basically come free with the processor which also takes care of driving the
display and reading the keys and switch positions. Everything else, and
probably the most expensive, is high accuracy front end analog components,
controls, packaging, and safety. And the basic system I have designed, and
now build, is much more accurate and sensitive than any generally available
true-RMS meter, and the parts required are probably no more than $20 in
quantity.

It seems that it is just "easier" to toss in a true-RMS IC and keep
everything else the same.

I have even made a true-RMS meter with an incandescent lamp and a photocell.
But it had problems with aging and temperature effects. That was for a very
simple, self-powered analog meter, however, which used thermocouples which
were very expensive. Now, however, I would use a matched lamp/photocell
pair, and drive one with the input signal (through a variable gain
amplifier), and the other from a DC current source, until the photocells
registered equal resistance. The bandwidth would be limited only by the
input amp. And for a very narrow range, if high impedance were not needed,
the lamp could be driven directly through a resistor. For most power line
measurements, drawing a few mA is not a problem.

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"David Eather is a ****"
Yeah. 10 minutes is starting to be about the amount of time when you
wouldn't download unless you had some assurance that it is actually what
you want.

But 3 minutes when you can also do something else (hopefully it wasn't the
last post available) is nothing.

** Problem being you generally do not know in advance how big a file is.

That pdf from HP was full of graphics and over 20 pages - so might have been
20 Mbytes for all I knew.

So I did the only sensible thing and dumped it.



.... Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Fields"


** Does the term psychopathic stalker mean anything to you ?
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Larkin" wrote in message
There's no reason for the sample rate to be greater than the signal
frequency. You just need an ADC with a narrow s/h time.
You don't want the sample rate to alias with the signal, so it's
good to sample sort of randomly. HP did this 45 years ago.

They did average reading, but could have done RMS if they'd had
a uP or something available.

Looking for a high accuracy True-RMS DMM, I found the HP 3458A, which has
several modes for AC measurement, including the random sampling technique:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5965-4971E.pdf

Nice! About $7500 new, as low as $4000 on eBay. Too rich for my blood!

Paul
 
H

Hellequin

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Fields"


** Does the term psychopathic stalker mean anything to you ?
Since you were looking in a mirror when you wrote that crap, yes.
 
P

Phil Allison

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Fields"


** I definitely made no error at all.

You are a fucking nut case, Fields.

And a vile pig.



.... Phil
 
J

JW

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Larkin" wrote in message


I'm doing that with a PIC, but for power line frequencies. I take the square
of each sample and add that to a running sum of squares, using integer math.
Then when I want to display the true RMS, I just shift the result to, 16
bits and then take a quick square root which is about 8 bits, which is still
0.4% accurate. My samples are typically 100 to 200 mSec. But I also
calculate the true RMS value of much longer pulses, such as are encountered
in circuit breaker testing for short and long time delays, which can be
anywhere from about 0.5 seconds to 200 seconds. So I still just maintain the
total of squares, which may be an unsigned long 32 bit number, which is
enough to hold 29 minutes of 10 bit data at 2400 samples per second.

This is needed because the current can vary during the test, due to heating
and other effects, so the breaker tends to react to the true RMS value of
the entire waveform, especially if it has a thermal delay element. Reclosers
are even more challenging, because their impedance changes by a factor as
high as 3, causing a huge difference in the RMS value of the current from
the beginning to the end of its stroke. This is an effect of low voltage
testing, and the change would be negligible on an actual fault with 14.4 kV.
Series resistance can be added to reduce the drop-off effect, but only so
much, so the RMS value must be computed for the entire waveform. This has
been shown to match the expected trip times very accurately.



I chose my Fluke 45 multimeter as the best choice for true RMS reading at
the time I bought it about 20 years ago. It has an accuracy of 0.2% + 100
counts from 50 Hz to 10 kHz, but that means that on the 100 mV range,
specified for 15,000 to 99,999 counts, it may be an additional 100/15000 or
0.67%. It seems to be actually much better than that, although it has an
offset of about 0.240 mV with the input shorted. I have been using this to
calibrate my Ortmasters, which are rated at 1% from full scale ranges of 50A
to 10,000A, using a 1000A 100 mV shunt. So when I calibrate the 50A range, I
am reading about 5.000 mV, which could be as much as 100 counts off, or 2%.
The Ortmaster typically shows an offset of 0.10 A on that range, which is
only 10 uV. So I may need to get a better standard!

The Fluke 8520A has a 1 year accuracy of 0.15% reading plus 0.05% FS, which
in this case is 1.99999 V, so the true error is as much as 1 mV. So its
accuracy at 5 mV is only really 20%! No winner here.

The Fluke 289 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.3% + 25 counts, 45-65 Hz, on the
50.000 mV range, which gives me an effective accuracy on a 5 mV reading of
0.8%. An improvement, but I'd really like 0.5% or better.

The Fluke 8808A is similar to the Fluke 45, but it does not seem to be true
RMS.

The Fluke 87 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.7% +2 digits and 0.1 mV
resolution.

The HP 3478 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.46% + 163 counts for the 300.000 mV
range.

I really have not found a meter that is significantly better than the Fluke
45. Any suggestions?


From 10Hz to 50Khz this is quite accurate:
http://www.keithley.com/data?asset=3086
I have one at work as well as at home.

An Agilent 34401A looks to be similar in specs, but I did not compare them
too much:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent...ype=LitStation&ctype=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&ml=eng
 
J

JW

Jan 1, 1970
0
I chose my Fluke 45 multimeter as the best choice for true RMS reading at
the time I bought it about 20 years ago. It has an accuracy of 0.2% + 100
counts from 50 Hz to 10 kHz, but that means that on the 100 mV range,
specified for 15,000 to 99,999 counts, it may be an additional 100/15000 or
0.67%. It seems to be actually much better than that, although it has an
offset of about 0.240 mV with the input shorted.

About that:
http://www.keithley.com/data?asset=11635
 
J

John Devereux

Jan 1, 1970
0
P E Schoen said:
"John Larkin" wrote in message


I'm doing that with a PIC, but for power line frequencies. I take the
square of each sample and add that to a running sum of squares, using
integer math. Then when I want to display the true RMS, I just shift
the result to, 16 bits and then take a quick square root which is
about 8 bits, which is still 0.4% accurate. My samples are typically
100 to 200 mSec. But I also calculate the true RMS value of much
longer pulses, such as are encountered in circuit breaker testing for
short and long time delays, which can be anywhere from about 0.5
seconds to 200 seconds. So I still just maintain the total of squares,
which may be an unsigned long 32 bit number, which is enough to hold
29 minutes of 10 bit data at 2400 samples per second.

This is needed because the current can vary during the test, due to
heating and other effects, so the breaker tends to react to the true
RMS value of the entire waveform, especially if it has a thermal delay
element. Reclosers are even more challenging, because their impedance
changes by a factor as high as 3, causing a huge difference in the RMS
value of the current from the beginning to the end of its stroke. This
is an effect of low voltage testing, and the change would be
negligible on an actual fault with 14.4 kV. Series resistance can be
added to reduce the drop-off effect, but only so much, so the RMS
value must be computed for the entire waveform. This has been shown to
match the expected trip times very accurately.



I chose my Fluke 45 multimeter as the best choice for true RMS reading
at the time I bought it about 20 years ago. It has an accuracy of 0.2%
+ 100 counts from 50 Hz to 10 kHz, but that means that on the 100 mV
range, specified for 15,000 to 99,999 counts, it may be an additional
100/15000 or 0.67%. It seems to be actually much better than that,
although it has an offset of about 0.240 mV with the input shorted. I
have been using this to calibrate my Ortmasters, which are rated at 1%
from full scale ranges of 50A to 10,000A, using a 1000A 100 mV
shunt. So when I calibrate the 50A range, I am reading about 5.000 mV,
which could be as much as 100 counts off, or 2%. The Ortmaster
typically shows an offset of 0.10 A on that range, which is only 10
uV. So I may need to get a better standard!

The Fluke 8520A has a 1 year accuracy of 0.15% reading plus 0.05% FS,
which in this case is 1.99999 V, so the true error is as much as 1
mV. So its accuracy at 5 mV is only really 20%! No winner here.

The Fluke 289 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.3% + 25 counts, 45-65 Hz,
on the 50.000 mV range, which gives me an effective accuracy on a 5 mV
reading of 0.8%. An improvement, but I'd really like 0.5% or better.

The Fluke 8808A is similar to the Fluke 45, but it does not seem to be
true RMS.

The Fluke 87 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.7% +2 digits and 0.1 mV
resolution.

The HP 3478 has a true-RMS accuracy of 0.46% + 163 counts for the
300.000 mV range.

I really have not found a meter that is significantly better than the
Fluke 45. Any suggestions?

Hi Paul,

HP3458A has 0.01% best accuracy 1Hz-10MHz.
 
J

JW

Jan 1, 1970
0
Here's how to fix a broken Keithley 2100:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/KeithleyFix.jpg

I've never used one of those. What's the problem you had with it?
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"JW" wrote in message
From 10Hz to 50Khz this is quite accurate:
http://www.keithley.com/data?asset=3086
I have one at work as well as at home.

There are some on eBay for $600-$800. Might be a good investment.
An Agilent 34401A looks to be similar in specs, but I did not
compare them too much:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent...ype=LitStation&ctype=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&ml=eng

That also looks quite good, and are available on eBay for as little as $200
to $400 (but some are $1000). If the $200 unit is OK (and it is described as
working), that may be the best deal. At least HP/Agilent usually have
extensive schematics and cal/repair documentation.

Thanks!

Paul
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Larkin" wrote in message
The 2100 isn't a Keithley, it's a Chinese rebrand

which is sold all around the world with multiple rebrands. Array
offered to do a rebrand version for us, too.
I complained so much that Keithley took them back and gave me 2000s.

So they were sold by Keithley? How much do they cost?

Paul
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Devereux" wrote in message
HP3458A has 0.01% best accuracy 1Hz-10MHz.

Yes, but I can't really justify / afford $4500 or more.

Thanks!

Paul
 
P

P E Schoen

Jan 1, 1970
0
"John Larkin" wrote in message
I really like my Fluke 8845A.

It has a one year accuracy of 0.06% RDG + 0.04% RNG on the 100mV scale. So
for my 5 mV signal it would be 0.06% + 0.0004*100/5 = 0.86% RDG. Not bad,
but not great. There is one on eBay for about $1000 and an 8846a not working
for about $500.

I need to figure out the real accuracy of the others I was considering. But
maybe it would be better to use a 100A 100mV shunt for my low-end
calibration. Then I would have a full 50 mV to work with. Just a hassle to
change the shunt, but I could probably rig them up in series and just use a
high current switch (like a battery cut-off) or a jumper to short out the
100A shunt when I calibrate at higher currents (500-1000A).

Paul
 
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