Compass Software

[R.H.Campbell]

Look Frank, I am not defending the guy, nor am I going to attack him for his
statements. I simply don't see it as useful for the newsgroup for half of
the posts here to be simply "pissing in each others ears". But I'm sure he's
just as hard headed as the rest of us in this group. I too see the jabs and
criticisms of our industry and there are times I wish he'd learn to use a
little discretion in his responses. But then if I was attacked at every
turn, I might respond the same way. Sometimes he goes overboard, (even for
me), but in a lot of his comments regarding our industry, a lot of the time,
he is not too far off the mark....dealers who's only interest is in
"flipping paper", dealers who unethically lock customer owned boards, and
SOME of the"big box" companies and mass marketers who cheapen the whole
market for all of us through atrocious and essentially dishonest dealer
programs and shoddy, minimalistic installations. And I could go on and on...

He too falls victim to the all too easy tendency to generalize about
problems and in the process make them seem more prevalent than they may be
(and I am just as guilty of that too although I do try to be especially
careful in this regard).

And as for Jim, I don't question his willingness to answer DIY'ers, nor his
willingness to respond, although I don't see most of them simply because for
the moment, I have him blocked. But the bottom line is NOTHING that any of
you guys say will change his approach. Make your statement of objection in a
factual way and then let it go. Readers can form their own opinion of the
worth of his statements or not. Factual criticism will always come across as
more convincing than a diatribe of hateful comments. But those same readers
can clearly see the total LACK of worth of some of the more hostile
statements you guys make in response, which only serves to make you look
like "the bad guys". The whole thing comes across sometimes as a bunch of
kids in a school yard fighting about trivia and in the process does nothing
for our image as professionals.

We can keep this thread going until the cows come home, but I absolutely
refuse to engage in the escalating stupidity that goes on here. If you see
that as wearing "rose coloured glasses" so be it. I stated my purpose in
being part of this newsgroup some years ago, and it hasn't changed and won't
change...

So press on....

RHC

 

[Jim]

No, I don't say RLB's an OK guy, nor do I say he is the monster you say he
is. I simply don't know; I have never met the man. I judge people on the
newsgroup by what they say and how they act in relation to answering
questions etc on security matters. That's all any of us are here for.

I see him answering people's questions in a straightforward way, although
like all of us, he is not always correct. He gets offensive when attached in
the most vicious ways by you and others. His motives for being on the
newsgroup are to help others and to sell his wares to DIY'ers, but at least
he answers DIY questions without making them feel stupid or belittling them
for their lack of knowledge. You on the other hand,often fill the newsgroup
with hateful, ignorant crap that does nothing to assist anyone here. So when
it comes right down to it, who's more of a problem here...

To use your own words, "you've proved my opinion of you to be
accurate...again"

No, I don't say RLB's an OK guy, nor do I say he is the monster you say he
is. I simply don't know; I have never met the man. I judge people on the
newsgroup by what they say and how they act in relation to answering
questions etc on security matters. That's all any of us are here for.

I see him answering people's questions in a straightforward way, although
like all of us, he is not always correct. He gets offensive when attached in
the most vicious ways by you and others. His motives for being on the
newsgroup are to help others and to sell his wares to DIY'ers, but at least
he answers DIY questions without making them feel stupid or belittling them
for their lack of knowledge. You on the other hand,often fill the newsgroup
with hateful, ignorant crap that does nothing to assist anyone here. So when
it comes right down to it, who's more of a problem here...

To use your own words, "you've proved my opinion of you to be
accurate...again"

Ok Bobby boy,

Let's get it on.

You want to tell me who it is that's the cause of all ..... THAT IS
*****ALL**** the people in this group of going after Shit for Brains
Bass? Is it me? Is it YOU? Is it anybody but that stupid son of a bitch
himself? What is it that makes everyone ....... THATS EVERYONE BUT
***** YOU ***** dislike him. I never started ONE FUCKING THING with
him. He's the one who ALWAYS starts it and it always IS him. There are
people here who say that ignoring him is the way to go. But yet they
themselves don't ignore him. YOU can ignore him if you want to. I say,
that if you ignore someone like him you're simply saying that what he
does is ok. And it's NOT ok. IT IS NOT OK!!!!!!! If no one ever stands
up and says that what he is doing is wrong then it becomes acceptable.
YOU can be one of those do-nothing people ..... but I'M NOT! And if you
want to condone what he does, that's YOUR fucking problem. I really
don't give a shit WHAT you think or WHAT you do. I'll simply use that
FAT ASSHOLEs method. I'LL do what ever the hell I want in this group
and you don't have any say in what I or anyone does here. If you don't
like it, you can leave. Sound familiar? Something that I NEVER would
have EVER considered saying in this or ANY where, prior to coming
across that nasty, arrogant son of a bitch. And if you can accept that
attitude from him, you've got to accept it from anybody else who
chooses to do the same things he does. Or, ..... are you really that
proud to be the hypocrite that I think you are? And I'll continue
doing what I do and how I do it, simply to exemplfiy EXACTLY what that
rotten bastard does to everyone in this group, by his conduct. If you
can accept all of the shit that that cocksucker hands out in this group
and what he's done and does to other people here and you can't tolerate
what ***** I ***** do, then you've got to re-evaluate what what your
sense of values are. I've NEVER done a FRACTION of the things to people
here, that HE's done. And the fact that I purposely use foul language
to bring my point home about what's tolerable and what's not, and you
take exception to that ..... but not HIS depravity, .... certainly
shows that YOU'VE got some twisted sense of values. Why is it that
profanity brings you out of your stupid naive little shell, whereby you
think you have good reason to openely object to what **** I **** do,
but with ALL of the dirty rotten things that that fucking bastard has
done to people .... for YEARS AND YEARS you never make comment? Why is
what I do here, purposely and intentionally, any different than what
you tolerate from him? A little confused about what's right and wrong
Bobby boy? I'd say so.

You tell me, is it ok to call someones employer and tell lies about
them?
Is it ok to go to a competitors website and tell lies about them?
Is it ok to steal someones post and information and claim it as their
own?
Is it ok to lie about being in the installation business just to fool
end users into buying from him?
Is it ok to belittle people for using wrong words or berating them
because they have different way of doing things?
Is it ok to berate the installation trade so that he can sell his
equipment?
AD INFINITUM
And how does all that that son of a bitch has done to people, compare
to me using profanity and objecting to his arrogant and depraved and
unacceptable conduct? And how is that you don't object to others who
openly object to him? Certainly Frank posts just as much or more
objections than I do. So is it simply the profanity that sticks in your
craw? We'll good. Because that's the very reason I do it. I know damn
fucking well that it makes EVERYONE uneasy and that it makes this group
look bad to others coming here. And that's EXACTLY the same thing that
Shit for Brains does. What I do here is done willfully and purposely,
in the same manner as he does what he does. AND WHY NOT? Will the group
be any better with just HIM fouling it up? If you object to me, and not
him, you'd damn well better get ready for more of this, because it's
NEVER going to go away as long as he continues to be the nasty bastard
that he is. And ANYone who objects to me had damn well better object to
what he does also.

"This is an Alt Newsgroup. No one has any control what goes on here or
have any say in what anyone does. And if you don't like it ....... you
can leave"

When he stops taking that attitude when his bad conduct is criticized,
then so will I.

Got it?
If not ..... it's basicly, ..... If you can shut your yap about what he
does, you'd damn well better keep what you think about what I do .....
to yourself also.


If not ... Unlike .... how you've become accustomed to Fat Ass's
conduct, I'll be very happy to continue this dialog in the "flowery
vernacular" that I hope you'll never become accustomed to ......
forever

And if you'll notice ...... You should take note of exactly WHO it was
that got your name and my response, involved with this. Does it look
like a familiar scenario to you? You simply got sucked in ........
again.

Toodles......

 

[Crash Gordon]

You guys are gonna give yourselves ulcers, or heartattacks.





|
| R.H.Campbell wrote:
| > No, I don't say RLB's an OK guy, nor do I say he is the monster you say
he
| > is. I simply don't know; I have never met the man. I judge people on the
| > newsgroup by what they say and how they act in relation to answering
| > questions etc on security matters. That's all any of us are here for.
| >
| > I see him answering people's questions in a straightforward way,
although
| > like all of us, he is not always correct. He gets offensive when
attached in
| > the most vicious ways by you and others. His motives for being on the
| > newsgroup are to help others and to sell his wares to DIY'ers, but at
least
| > he answers DIY questions without making them feel stupid or belittling
them
| > for their lack of knowledge. You on the other hand,often fill the
newsgroup
| > with hateful, ignorant crap that does nothing to assist anyone here. So
when
| > it comes right down to it, who's more of a problem here...
| >
| > To use your own words, "you've proved my opinion of you to be
| > accurate...again"
|
|
|
| R.H.Campbell wrote:
| > No, I don't say RLB's an OK guy, nor do I say he is the monster you say
he
| > is. I simply don't know; I have never met the man. I judge people on the
| > newsgroup by what they say and how they act in relation to answering
| > questions etc on security matters. That's all any of us are here for.
| >
| > I see him answering people's questions in a straightforward way,
although
| > like all of us, he is not always correct. He gets offensive when
attached in
| > the most vicious ways by you and others. His motives for being on the
| > newsgroup are to help others and to sell his wares to DIY'ers, but at
least
| > he answers DIY questions without making them feel stupid or belittling
them
| > for their lack of knowledge. You on the other hand,often fill the
newsgroup
| > with hateful, ignorant crap that does nothing to assist anyone here. So
when
| > it comes right down to it, who's more of a problem here...
| >
| > To use your own words, "you've proved my opinion of you to be
| > accurate...again"
|
| Ok Bobby boy,
|
| Let's get it on.
|
| You want to tell me who it is that's the cause of all ..... THAT IS
| *****ALL**** the people in this group of going after Shit for Brains
| Bass? Is it me? Is it YOU? Is it anybody but that stupid son of a bitch
| himself? What is it that makes everyone ....... THATS EVERYONE BUT
| ***** YOU ***** dislike him. I never started ONE FUCKING THING with
| him. He's the one who ALWAYS starts it and it always IS him. There are
| people here who say that ignoring him is the way to go. But yet they
| themselves don't ignore him. YOU can ignore him if you want to. I say,
| that if you ignore someone like him you're simply saying that what he
| does is ok. And it's NOT ok. IT IS NOT OK!!!!!!! If no one ever stands
| up and says that what he is doing is wrong then it becomes acceptable.
| YOU can be one of those do-nothing people ..... but I'M NOT! And if you
| want to condone what he does, that's YOUR fucking problem. I really
| don't give a shit WHAT you think or WHAT you do. I'll simply use that
| FAT ASSHOLEs method. I'LL do what ever the hell I want in this group
| and you don't have any say in what I or anyone does here. If you don't
| like it, you can leave. Sound familiar? Something that I NEVER would
| have EVER considered saying in this or ANY where, prior to coming
| across that nasty, arrogant son of a bitch. And if you can accept that
| attitude from him, you've got to accept it from anybody else who
| chooses to do the same things he does. Or, ..... are you really that
| proud to be the hypocrite that I think you are? And I'll continue
| doing what I do and how I do it, simply to exemplfiy EXACTLY what that
| rotten bastard does to everyone in this group, by his conduct. If you
| can accept all of the shit that that cocksucker hands out in this group
| and what he's done and does to other people here and you can't tolerate
| what ***** I ***** do, then you've got to re-evaluate what what your
| sense of values are. I've NEVER done a FRACTION of the things to people
| here, that HE's done. And the fact that I purposely use foul language
| to bring my point home about what's tolerable and what's not, and you
| take exception to that ..... but not HIS depravity, .... certainly
| shows that YOU'VE got some twisted sense of values. Why is it that
| profanity brings you out of your stupid naive little shell, whereby you
| think you have good reason to openely object to what **** I **** do,
| but with ALL of the dirty rotten things that that fucking bastard has
| done to people .... for YEARS AND YEARS you never make comment? Why is
| what I do here, purposely and intentionally, any different than what
| you tolerate from him? A little confused about what's right and wrong
| Bobby boy? I'd say so.
|
| You tell me, is it ok to call someones employer and tell lies about
| them?
| Is it ok to go to a competitors website and tell lies about them?
| Is it ok to steal someones post and information and claim it as their
| own?
| Is it ok to lie about being in the installation business just to fool
| end users into buying from him?
| Is it ok to belittle people for using wrong words or berating them
| because they have different way of doing things?
| Is it ok to berate the installation trade so that he can sell his
| equipment?
| AD INFINITUM
| And how does all that that son of a bitch has done to people, compare
| to me using profanity and objecting to his arrogant and depraved and
| unacceptable conduct? And how is that you don't object to others who
| openly object to him? Certainly Frank posts just as much or more
| objections than I do. So is it simply the profanity that sticks in your
| craw? We'll good. Because that's the very reason I do it. I know damn
| fucking well that it makes EVERYONE uneasy and that it makes this group
| look bad to others coming here. And that's EXACTLY the same thing that
| Shit for Brains does. What I do here is done willfully and purposely,
| in the same manner as he does what he does. AND WHY NOT? Will the group
| be any better with just HIM fouling it up? If you object to me, and not
| him, you'd damn well better get ready for more of this, because it's
| NEVER going to go away as long as he continues to be the nasty bastard
| that he is. And ANYone who objects to me had damn well better object to
| what he does also.
|
| "This is an Alt Newsgroup. No one has any control what goes on here or
| have any say in what anyone does. And if you don't like it ....... you
| can leave"
|
| When he stops taking that attitude when his bad conduct is criticized,
| then so will I.
|
| Got it?
| If not ..... it's basicly, ..... If you can shut your yap about what he
| does, you'd damn well better keep what you think about what I do .....
| to yourself also.
|
|
| If not ... Unlike .... how you've become accustomed to Fat Ass's
| conduct, I'll be very happy to continue this dialog in the "flowery
| vernacular" that I hope you'll never become accustomed to ......
| forever
|
| And if you'll notice ...... You should take note of exactly WHO it was
| that got your name and my response, involved with this. Does it look
| like a familiar scenario to you? You simply got sucked in ........
| again.
|
| Toodles......
|
| >
| > | > >
| > > Mark Leuck wrote:
| > >>
| > >> Why aren't you ragging Crash for not slamming RLB like you do RH
| > >> Campbell?
| > >
| > > Because Campbell actually says that SFB is an OK guy and thinks that
| > > it's everybody else who causes the problems.
| > >
| > > Crash at least knows what's going on, and occasionally let's his
| > > opinion be known but (mostly) chooses to stay out of it.
| > >
| > > But you've proved my opinion of you to be accurate ....... again.
| > >
|
|
|
|
| >
| > RHC
| >
| > | > >
| > > Mark Leuck wrote:
| > >>
| > >> Why aren't you ragging Crash for not slamming RLB like you do RH
| > >> Campbell?
| > >
| > > Because Campbell actually says that SFB is an OK guy and thinks that
| > > it's everybody else who causes the problems.
| > >
| > > Crash at least knows what's going on, and occasionally let's his
| > > opinion be known but (mostly) chooses to stay out of it.
| > >
| > > But you've proved my opinion of you to be accurate ....... again.
| > >
|

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Nah, don't worry Crash ! I don't let anything like this bother me as you may
have gathered by now. Jim gets pretty vociferous and very angry when it
comes to some things I say, but mostly it's RLB that REALLY lights his fuse
!! But he's OK when he isn't spitting mad, and his mouth's revved up in
neutral....)

I wonder where RLB is anyway; it's not like him to just diappear without
letting us know his plans...)

RHC

 

[Joe Lucia]

I doubt Honeywell cares who has the software since the CSID secures the
hardware (if used properly).

If I own my alarm system, I expect to be able to Program my alarm
sytem. If software is Required to program it, then the software should
be readily available.

I put a Vista 20P in with wireless sensors with a non-alpha keypad
(keypad is also the wireless receiver). What I didn't realize until
after it was all installed was that I could not configure the wireless
zones without an alphanumeric keypad because of it's Menu-Mode
programming. I HAD to use the software to program my wireless zones
(maybe someone else knows how to do it without the software, but I
couldn't find it in the manual). For this reason, the software should
be available to the user/owner/whoever is programming the panel,
regardless of their profession or skill level (if it's your panel, you
should be allowed to screw it up, and pay for a service-call afterwards
to have a professional fix it). You just don't sell hardware to
someone and then tell them they can't have the software to program it
or you are going to charge them extra to make-it-work (unless it was
known up-front before purchasing the hardware). Just because you are
not an Alarm Professional doesn't mean you can't do it as-good if not
better then an Alarm Professional. I don't have a Computer Sciences or
Electronics Degree but know a lot more about computers and electronics
then any fresh graduate from DeVry does (which maybe isn't saying much
about myself).

Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then
it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being
available to the general public. The only reason to prevent just
anyone from downloading the software without some-sort of login is to
prevent a lot of unnecessary Technical Support to End-Users trying to
download their own panel. In this case, If the End-User can get to the
(free) download software and find a modem that works with it, then they
are probably worthy of having it. It's a way to let Honeywell filter
out the unwanted non-pro's from calling tech-support. If they didn't
password-it then they would get flooded with homeowners thinking they
can download the software and change user codes on their panels with
the software.

In no way am I condoning giving out the username/password (publicly)
for Honeywell's Dealer Support area, but at the same time I think the
individuals who are competent not-professionals should be able to have
a crack at it as long as they realize they can't call Honeywell for
Tech Support.

So, if you want to give out a username/password, do it in a PRIVATE
message to prevent people who wouldn't be going there in the first
place from going there just because they have a username and password
now and want to hack.

 

[Frank Olson]

Look Frank,

I'm reminded of that scene in "Wallace and Grommit" where someone yells
"Duck!", and Wallace responds with "Where?" and almost gets flattened.

I am not defending the guy, nor am I going to attack him for his
statements.

No. But you let him carry on with his unprovoked attacks. I haven't flamed
him once in almost a year now. I've simply been asking for proof for his
many statements of "supposed fact".

I simply don't see it as useful for the newsgroup for half of the posts
here to be simply "pissing in each others ears".

Interesting. You say you recognize what Robert does and don't approve, but
you keep "out of it" and let him run rough-shod through the group. Forget
ethics. Forget the FAQ. Perhaps we should change the name of it to
Alt.Bass.Burglar.Alarms.Tech .

But I'm sure he's just as hard headed as the rest of us in this group. I
too see the jabs and criticisms of our industry and there are times I wish
he'd learn to use a little discretion in his responses.

But you don't *say* anything...

But then if I was attacked at every turn, I might respond the same way.

Let's wait and see, shall we?? Let's see who "casts the first stone" (makes
the first derogatory remark) on his return (if he returns, that is).

Sometimes he goes overboard, (even for me), but in a lot of his comments
regarding our industry, a lot of the time, he is not too far off the
mark....dealers who's only interest is in "flipping paper", dealers who
unethically lock customer owned boards, and SOME of the"big box" companies
and mass marketers who cheapen the whole market for all of us through
atrocious and essentially dishonest dealer programs and shoddy,
minimalistic installations. And I could go on and on...

Which you frequently do. I agree that there are shady dealers out there,
but they are in fact far fewer than either you or RLB keep going on about.
I was working for Chubb when ADT introduced the "low down/zero down" systems
they were responding to a trend in many local markets that was putting
downward pressure on the actual install. Chubb was always priced "high" and
it was tough selling a $4000.00 system in a residential market that averaged
$1500.00 for the same equipment. Was Chubb "gouging"?? Are they still in
business?? How many of the local firms that we were competing against are
still around?? I know of six (and they all operate their own monitoring
stations, charge between $70 and $90 per hour and markup equipment by at
least 50%). The rest are "history".

He too falls victim to the all too easy tendency to generalize about
problems and in the process make them seem more prevalent than they may be
(and I am just as guilty of that too although I do try to be especially
careful in this regard).

Careful?? Hardly!! When Robert frequently tries to turn the discussion to
any of the aforementioned subjects, you're always quick to jump right in and
defend him. Even though you know that many of the practices he rants
against aren't as prevalent as he (and you) make them out to be...

And as for Jim, I don't question his willingness to answer DIY'ers, nor
his willingness to respond, although I don't see most of them simply
because for the moment, I have him blocked.

Then you've missed all the positives Jim's contributed in an effort to "weed
out" what you consider "hateful, ignorant crap". Let me ask you... How do
you consider some of Robert's responses?? The ones where he outright *LIES*
about people, or infers by innuendo that they're "on drugs", are
"pedophiles", and "child beaters"... When have I ever seen you respond by
placing him on your "ignore list"?? Do four letter words in this group
offend you?? I think you're in the wrong industry if they do... Perhaps
you should open a bookstore.

But the bottom line is NOTHING that any of you guys say will change his
approach. Make your statement of objection in a factual way and then let
it go. Readers can form their own opinion of the worth of his statements
or not. Factual criticism will always come across as more convincing than
a diatribe of hateful comments.

Agreed. But how do you deal with an individual that ignores all the rules,
posts passwords to security manufacturer's sites, sells *dealer* software to
anyone with a valid credit card?? Who ignores netiquette and ethics?? Who
"revels" in his ability to create mayhem and then turns around and accuses
the participants here that respond of being DIY unfriendly?

But those same readers can clearly see the total LACK of worth of some of
the more hostile statements you guys make in response, which only serves
to make you look like "the bad guys". The whole thing comes across
sometimes as a bunch of kids in a school yard fighting about trivia and in
the process does nothing for our image as professionals.

Which is exactly why I've decided not to respond in this fashion. I've
asked for proof of his statements. Seems to me that's working about as well
as Jim's efforts...

We can keep this thread going until the cows come home, but I absolutely
refuse to engage in the escalating stupidity that goes on here. If you see
that as wearing "rose coloured glasses" so be it. I stated my purpose in
being part of this newsgroup some years ago, and it hasn't changed and
won't change...

So press on....

So let's "press on"... Would you ignore shoddy work from one of your
employees?? Would you stand by and say nothing if they were engaged in the
kind of discussions Robert starts in front of your customers?? Have you
noticed how much more peaceful the group is when he's *not* around?? Have
you noticed how everyone here naturally follows a set of guidelines even
though a number of them have never even seen the Group's FAQ?? The
participants here are professionals. They don't need some guy that runs a
mail-order store coming in to tell them they're all a bunch of crooks
because they "overcharge" for services. Some of us actually run brick and
mortar security businesses, pay Provincial Sales Tax, Worker's Comp,
Insurance, Office, actually *stock* inventory, have four (or more) vehicles
on the road, etc.

I'm of the opinion that something has happened to Robert that he didn't
forsee (in other words, it's not a vacation or planned absence). I've never
wished the man "ill", and any attempt at reasoning with him when we were on
friendly terms has always resulted in more flames from him. That's what I
meant by you're wearing "rose coloured specs". You frequently tend to
ignore what Robert's posted and focus on the response, which I must admit
looks like it goes "over-board" *in the moment*, but when put into the
context of "the big picture", perhaps isn't. You've been here long enough
to know.

 

[Frank Olson]

Nah, don't worry Crash ! I don't let anything like this bother me as you
may have gathered by now. Jim gets pretty vociferous and very angry when
it comes to some things I say, but mostly it's RLB that REALLY lights his
fuse !! But he's OK when he isn't spitting mad, and his mouth's revved up
in neutral....)

I wonder where RLB is anyway; it's not like him to just diappear without
letting us know his plans...)

Why not email him and find out?? I would, but I've been expressly forbidden
to correspond with him personally.

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Frank, I've stated my position, and why I'm here, and frankly that's the end
of it. I have no wish to argue semantics with you vis a vis who did what to
whom. I can't control anyone on this newsgroup any more than you or Jim,
although I think your approach to dealing with what you see as RLB's sins
makes far more sense than Jim's. Personally, I can't remember a single
instance when I have either attacked OR defended RLB on anything. However,
if I happen to agree or disagree with him on technical points, I say so, as
does he, if he disagrees with me. You get what you give in life, and that
goes for a virtual newsgroup as well. It's not a personal thing; it's just a
newsgroup.

As for our industry and some of the shady things that go on, I think perhaps
you might have slightly rose coloured glasses on, or things are much better
out West than they are around here. If you guys would spend less time
obsessed with RLB, and focus on some of the real problems we all face in the
industry, things would run smoother (and the posts would be more useful to
readers). And believe me, foul language doesn't bother me in the least, but
there are many readers who do take offence to it. Nor does it add anything
to the newsgroup.

As for where RLB is now, I don't know any more than you do. I won't bother
to send him an e mail because he never answers them. You have better luck
getting hold of him from within the newsgroup than you do by e mail.

RHC

 

[alarman]

I wonder where RLB is anyway; it's not like him to just diappear without
letting us know his plans...)

Could be he opened his smart mouth in public and got his clock cleaned.
js

 

[Mark Leuck]

I doubt Honeywell cares who has the software since the CSID secures the
hardware (if used properly).

Sure they do, they have explicit statements that the software is intended
for professional dealers

If I own my alarm system, I expect to be able to Program my alarm
sytem. If software is Required to program it, then the software should
be readily available.

No it should not, GM/Ford/Toyota programs the computer chip for your car but
they are not under any obligation to provide you with the ability to
reprogram it, the method to do so does exist however they do not approve of
doing it yourself. They cannot control the outcome of your downloading a
panel nor can they control you downloading someone elses panel therefore it
is not for you.

They don't make Compass available for end users although they now have a
package for end users that will allow changing codes etc but not panel
programming, it doesn't yet support the 20P

I put a Vista 20P in with wireless sensors with a non-alpha keypad
(keypad is also the wireless receiver). What I didn't realize until
after it was all installed was that I could not configure the wireless
zones without an alphanumeric keypad because of it's Menu-Mode
programming. I HAD to use the software to program my wireless zones

No you didn't, the installation manual clearly states an alpha keypad is
required which btw will also program the sensors.

(maybe someone else knows how to do it without the software, but I
couldn't find it in the manual).

Let me ask you this, if you cannot find out what is required to program or
how to program zones in a Honeywell panel after reading the manual why would
Honeywell or ANYONE trust you with software?

For this reason, the software should
be available to the user/owner/whoever is programming the panel,
regardless of their profession or skill level (if it's your panel, you
should be allowed to screw it up, and pay for a service-call afterwards
to have a professional fix it).

Again it's clearly noted in the installation manual that an alpha keypad IS
required and it goes into great detail how to program sensors and you
couldn't figure it out therefore its up to Honeywell to make software
available????

You just don't sell hardware to
someone and then tell them they can't have the software to program it

Again not my GM/Ford/Toyota statement.

or you are going to charge them extra to make-it-work (unless it was
known up-front before purchasing the hardware). Just because you are
not an Alarm Professional doesn't mean you can't do it as-good if not
better then an Alarm Professional. I don't have a Computer Sciences or
Electronics Degree but know a lot more about computers and electronics
then any fresh graduate from DeVry does (which maybe isn't saying much
about myself).

Thats okay, DeVry is about 3 miles away from me and I'll bet many of them
won't know jack about how to work Compass

Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then
it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being
available to the general public.

It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program the
panel

 

[mikey]

This is the likely scenario. I bet he's got his jaw wired shut and he's
eating thru a straw.

 

[Crash Gordon]

When my Mustang was new I was going to put in a superchip thingie until I
found out I'd have to remove it if I needed warrantee work done on the car,
then reinstall it after Ford work was done or it would void the warrantee.


|
| | > I doubt Honeywell cares who has the software since the CSID secures the
| > hardware (if used properly).
|
| Sure they do, they have explicit statements that the software is intended
| for professional dealers
|
| > If I own my alarm system, I expect to be able to Program my alarm
| > sytem. If software is Required to program it, then the software should
| > be readily available.
|
| No it should not, GM/Ford/Toyota programs the computer chip for your car
but
| they are not under any obligation to provide you with the ability to
| reprogram it, the method to do so does exist however they do not approve
of
| doing it yourself. They cannot control the outcome of your downloading a
| panel nor can they control you downloading someone elses panel therefore
it
| is not for you.
|
| They don't make Compass available for end users although they now have a
| package for end users that will allow changing codes etc but not panel
| programming, it doesn't yet support the 20P
|
| > I put a Vista 20P in with wireless sensors with a non-alpha keypad
| > (keypad is also the wireless receiver). What I didn't realize until
| > after it was all installed was that I could not configure the wireless
| > zones without an alphanumeric keypad because of it's Menu-Mode
| > programming. I HAD to use the software to program my wireless zones
|
| No you didn't, the installation manual clearly states an alpha keypad is
| required which btw will also program the sensors.
|
| > (maybe someone else knows how to do it without the software, but I
| > couldn't find it in the manual).
|
| Let me ask you this, if you cannot find out what is required to program or
| how to program zones in a Honeywell panel after reading the manual why
would
| Honeywell or ANYONE trust you with software?
|
| > For this reason, the software should
| > be available to the user/owner/whoever is programming the panel,
| > regardless of their profession or skill level (if it's your panel, you
| > should be allowed to screw it up, and pay for a service-call afterwards
| > to have a professional fix it).
|
| Again it's clearly noted in the installation manual that an alpha keypad
IS
| required and it goes into great detail how to program sensors and you
| couldn't figure it out therefore its up to Honeywell to make software
| available????
|
|
| > You just don't sell hardware to
| > someone and then tell them they can't have the software to program it
|
| Again not my GM/Ford/Toyota statement.
|
| > or you are going to charge them extra to make-it-work (unless it was
| > known up-front before purchasing the hardware). Just because you are
| > not an Alarm Professional doesn't mean you can't do it as-good if not
| > better then an Alarm Professional. I don't have a Computer Sciences or
| > Electronics Degree but know a lot more about computers and electronics
| > then any fresh graduate from DeVry does (which maybe isn't saying much
| > about myself).
|
| Thats okay, DeVry is about 3 miles away from me and I'll bet many of them
| won't know jack about how to work Compass
|
| >
| > Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then
| > it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being
| > available to the general public.
|
| It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program
the
| panel
|
|
|

 

[Crash Gordon]

| It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program
the
| panel

Maybe not, dunno, but do know he's a helluva coder-dood.


|
| | > I doubt Honeywell cares who has the software since the CSID secures the
| > hardware (if used properly).
|
| Sure they do, they have explicit statements that the software is intended
| for professional dealers
|
| > If I own my alarm system, I expect to be able to Program my alarm
| > sytem. If software is Required to program it, then the software should
| > be readily available.
|
| No it should not, GM/Ford/Toyota programs the computer chip for your car
but
| they are not under any obligation to provide you with the ability to
| reprogram it, the method to do so does exist however they do not approve
of
| doing it yourself. They cannot control the outcome of your downloading a
| panel nor can they control you downloading someone elses panel therefore
it
| is not for you.
|
| They don't make Compass available for end users although they now have a
| package for end users that will allow changing codes etc but not panel
| programming, it doesn't yet support the 20P
|
| > I put a Vista 20P in with wireless sensors with a non-alpha keypad
| > (keypad is also the wireless receiver). What I didn't realize until
| > after it was all installed was that I could not configure the wireless
| > zones without an alphanumeric keypad because of it's Menu-Mode
| > programming. I HAD to use the software to program my wireless zones
|
| No you didn't, the installation manual clearly states an alpha keypad is
| required which btw will also program the sensors.
|
| > (maybe someone else knows how to do it without the software, but I
| > couldn't find it in the manual).
|
| Let me ask you this, if you cannot find out what is required to program or
| how to program zones in a Honeywell panel after reading the manual why
would
| Honeywell or ANYONE trust you with software?
|
| > For this reason, the software should
| > be available to the user/owner/whoever is programming the panel,
| > regardless of their profession or skill level (if it's your panel, you
| > should be allowed to screw it up, and pay for a service-call afterwards
| > to have a professional fix it).
|
| Again it's clearly noted in the installation manual that an alpha keypad
IS
| required and it goes into great detail how to program sensors and you
| couldn't figure it out therefore its up to Honeywell to make software
| available????
|
|
| > You just don't sell hardware to
| > someone and then tell them they can't have the software to program it
|
| Again not my GM/Ford/Toyota statement.
|
| > or you are going to charge them extra to make-it-work (unless it was
| > known up-front before purchasing the hardware). Just because you are
| > not an Alarm Professional doesn't mean you can't do it as-good if not
| > better then an Alarm Professional. I don't have a Computer Sciences or
| > Electronics Degree but know a lot more about computers and electronics
| > then any fresh graduate from DeVry does (which maybe isn't saying much
| > about myself).
|
| Thats okay, DeVry is about 3 miles away from me and I'll bet many of them
| won't know jack about how to work Compass
|
| >
| > Of course, if the software was NOT required to program the panel, then
| > it should be Sold/Given to professionals without necessarily being
| > available to the general public.
|

|
|
|

 

[Joe Lucia]

Sure they do, they have explicit statements that the software is intended

for professional dealers

But they don't SECURE it as if they only want professionals to have it.
I could give one username and password out to ALL of my dealers and
tell them not to tell anyone else and to only access their own accounts
or the things they are competent enough to access, but they won't,
regardless of my "explicit statement", therefore proper security is
required if you only want "professional dealers" to use the resources
you make available to everyone. And I say "made available to everyone"
because it obviously IS, password or not.

No it should not, GM/Ford/Toyota programs the computer chip for your car but
they are not under any obligation to provide you with the ability to
reprogram it,

Cars do not need to be initially programmed by the user (or Dealer for
that matter) to make them work. They work as-is, out-of-the-box.

the method to do so does exist however they do not approve of
doing it yourself. They cannot control the outcome of your downloading a
panel nor can they control you downloading someone elses panel therefore it
is not for you.

This is a matter of Controlling who is working with your hardware.
Even a Professional doesn't always know what they are doing nor should
be programming a panel they have not had enough experience with (I see
it every day!).

Even a Professional can't download someone elses panel if that panel
has been secured properly by the "Professional" that originally
installed it. If an end-user gets the software, then if the
Professionals do their job, there is no worry of the end-user doing
something they shouldn't with someone elses panel. Mmaybe they could
include an "explicit statement" to the end-user telling them they
should only use the software on their own panel, think that would keep
everyone honest

No you didn't, the installation manual clearly states an alpha keypad is
required which btw will also program the sensors.


Let me ask you this, if you cannot find out what is required to program or
how to program zones in a Honeywell panel after reading the manual why would
Honeywell or ANYONE trust you with software?

Yes, the manual indicates that you must have an alpha keypad to program
the zones using the Menu Mode. But when reading I kept getting the
impression there was a way to program them without using Menu Mode
since I didn't have an alpha keypad. Apparently Not, so I either
needed to purchase an alpha keypad just so I could program the panel,
or get the Software. I already had a usable modem so I opted to
download the software.

Again it's clearly noted in the installation manual that an alpha keypad IS
required and it goes into great detail how to program sensors and you
couldn't figure it out therefore its up to Honeywell to make software
available????

It already is, it appears you do not know how to properly keypad program the
panel

I think you are under the impression that I HAVE an alpha keypad. I do
not. It does say "if you have an Alpha Keypad then you can use the
Menu Mode to program your Wireless zones". It doesn't say "if you
don't, then you need to get an alpha keypad or use the software", so I
kept searching for a way to program the wireless zones with a non-alph
keypad. It wasn't a matter of knowing how to do it, it was a matter of
knowing if I had the proper Tools to do it. Once I knew I didn't have
the proper tool, I got the tool and did the job, no problem. I just
want to make sure the Tool required to complete the job didn't require
purchasing additional hardware because the software wasn't available to
me, someone perfectly competent to use it and understand the
consequences of invalid programming, yet I wouldn't call myself a
"Professional Dealer" per se because I'm not a Technician or Installer.

 

[Frank Olson]

But they don't SECURE it as if they only want professionals to have it.
I could give one username and password out to ALL of my dealers and
tell them not to tell anyone else and to only access their own accounts
or the things they are competent enough to access, but they won't,
regardless of my "explicit statement", therefore proper security is
required if you only want "professional dealers" to use the resources
you make available to everyone. And I say "made available to everyone"
because it obviously IS, password or not.

The fact that the site *is* secured at all should tell you that they don't
want "just anyone" to access the software. The fact that the softwares EULA
also indicates it's intented to be used by qualified service personnel
should also tell you that they don't want "just anyone" to have access to
it... You seem to miss these important points (as does the individual that
provided you with the user id and password. If you were to call one of your
local dealers and ask them to supply you with access the Honeywell Dealer
site, what would they say??

Cars do not need to be initially programmed by the user (or Dealer for
that matter) to make them work. They work as-is, out-of-the-box.

Boy are *you* wrong. Cars are "programmed" at the factory. Yes, the Dealer
has to do very little in the way of "intervention", because they *do* work
"out of the box". GM (Ford, Chrysler, etc.) won't give you access to
programming though, and there's no way for you to alter critical functions.
On GM vehicles equipped with "Onstar", you also don't have the option of
using another provider. With the panel software you can pretty well do
anything you want (including "nulling" the zones, telco numbers and account
codes).

This is a matter of Controlling who is working with your hardware.
Even a Professional doesn't always know what they are doing nor should
be programming a panel they have not had enough experience with (I see
it every day!).

Right!!! Just like the factory trained mechanic for your car is also
capable of making some alteration to the software that runs critical
functions. I understand that there are chip readers out there that will
give you the ability to view the different settings, but won't allow you to
alter them.

A "Professional" technican/Dealer has access to manufacturer sponsored
training that an end-user won't. It behooves any Dealer that employs
technicians to ensure they're adequately trained on the equipment they sell.
If they don't, they're not being efficient and they're losing money!!

Even a Professional can't download someone elses panel if that panel
has been secured properly by the "Professional" that originally
installed it. If an end-user gets the software, then if the
Professionals do their job, there is no worry of the end-user doing
something they shouldn't with someone elses panel. Mmaybe they could
include an "explicit statement" to the end-user telling them they
should only use the software on their own panel, think that would keep
everyone honest

That won't help. If, for instance the end-user wants to use the software he
purchases from some online retailer on his own system, he has to call his
Dealer and get the access codes (and in some instances the CSID number which
the software "writes" to the panel on the initial download). I know of no
Dealer that would give that informtaion out to an end-user. Doing so would
compromise every panel they have that uses that same software.

Yes, the manual indicates that you must have an alpha keypad to program
the zones using the Menu Mode. But when reading I kept getting the
impression there was a way to program them without using Menu Mode
since I didn't have an alpha keypad. Apparently Not, so I either
needed to purchase an alpha keypad just so I could program the panel,
or get the Software. I already had a usable modem so I opted to
download the software.

If you were my customer and decided you wanted to program your own equipment
using Dealer software, I'd say... "Sure, send me a cheque for the balance
of your contract, then we'll default your panel and you can find yourself
another monitoring centre and servicing Dealer. Good-bye!!"

I think you are under the impression that I HAVE an alpha keypad. I do
not. It does say "if you have an Alpha Keypad then you can use the
Menu Mode to program your Wireless zones". It doesn't say "if you
don't, then you need to get an alpha keypad or use the software", so I
kept searching for a way to program the wireless zones with a non-alph
keypad. It wasn't a matter of knowing how to do it, it was a matter of
knowing if I had the proper Tools to do it. Once I knew I didn't have
the proper tool, I got the tool and did the job, no problem. I just
want to make sure the Tool required to complete the job didn't require
purchasing additional hardware because the software wasn't available to
me, someone perfectly competent to use it and understand the
consequences of invalid programming, yet I wouldn't call myself a
"Professional Dealer" per se because I'm not a Technician or Installer.

There is a way to program the panel without the Alpha keypad. You have to
be familiar with the panel's reponses though to do it. I couldn't "teach"
you how to, nor would I want to. The method is far more prone to error if
you're unfamiliar with the equipment. Leave the programming of the panel to
someone that is trained to do so. If you don't like the fact that they're
going to "restrict" you then your option is to have the system defaulted to
a local panel, purchase a remote dialler module and program that to call
your cell phone. Of course, you could always call up "NextAlarm" and have
them send you their dialler. From what I've read and seen in this group
though, I'd have some concerns on how they deal with their customers as
well...

 

[Joe Lucia]

The fact that the site *is* secured at all should tell you that they don't

want "just anyone" to access the software. The fact that the softwares EULA
also indicates it's intented to be used by qualified service personnel
should also tell you that they don't want "just anyone" to have access to
it... You seem to miss these important points (as does the individual that
provided you with the user id and password. If you were to call one of your
local dealers and ask them to supply you with access the Honeywell Dealer
site, what would they say??

The community is a big place and the password has been posted often
enough to be found somewhere on the Internet (never by ME, I wouldn't
do that). That's just bad security. I'm not suggesting just anyone
SHOULD have access, I'm just saying if they were SERIOUS about just
professionals having it, then they would secure it better. I have no
sympathy for anyone who doesn't secure a secured site properly. EULA's
are useless to the end-user, they just don't care because no one will
sue them because there is no standard to go by to determine who
qualifies as a "Professional".

Legally speaking, you are correct in every way. But, the Internet is a
big world, Warnings and EULA's are impossible to enforce in this
scenario. You Must secure your data/information/applications properly
or the undesirables Will get it.

Boy are *you* wrong. Cars are "programmed" at the factory. Yes, the Dealer
has to do very little in the way of "intervention", because they *do* work
"out of the box". GM (Ford, Chrysler, etc.) won't give you access to
programming though, and there's no way for you to alter critical functions.
On GM vehicles equipped with "Onstar", you also don't have the option of
using another provider. With the panel software you can pretty well do
anything you want (including "nulling" the zones, telco numbers and account
codes).

You are talking about a peice of hardware that is completely programmed
and configured and ready to go and doesn't need any end-user or dealer
tweaking, compared to a piece of hardware that has no useful smarts
until it is configured properly. You can't alter the core programming
on an Alarm Panel either, you can only muck with parameters. Mucking
up the right parameters in a perfectly good car/alarm system can make
critical functions fail. I know people who have the hardware and
software to pull-over and plug in their laptop to their truck to change
it's performance (because the configured it for better off-road
performance but then it performed terribly once back on the freeway).
Not a dealer or technician, just a guy who knows computers and cars and
the right sources of the necessary equipment. Sure the stuff isn't
available to the general public, but there is ALWAYS a way to get it,
as we've just seen here, there is always some who Was in the business
but now isn't and feels they have no obligation to anyone to keep the
secrets. It is unfortunate, so we must be prepared for them by
securing things by USER not by COMMUNITY. There is always a user in
the community that will become corrupt. It's inevitable.

That won't help. If, for instance the end-user wants to use the software he
purchases from some online retailer on his own system, he has to call his
Dealer and get the access codes (and in some instances the CSID number which
the software "writes" to the panel on the initial download). I know of no
Dealer that would give that informtaion out to an end-user. Doing so would
compromise every panel they have that uses that same software.

True, the installer code could be necessary. The CSID can be reset to
blank if you know the installer code.

I'd just default my panel according to the documentation and start from
scratch (I already know what my zones are and how they should respond).

If you were my customer and decided you wanted to program your own equipment
using Dealer software, I'd say... "Sure, send me a cheque for the balance
of your contract, then we'll default your panel and you can find yourself
another monitoring centre and servicing Dealer. Good-bye!!"

I would do the same thing I'm not saying I'd like to support an
end-user doing this. Nor would I expect to be supported if I were the
end-user. I also expect to be completely responsible for any
programming errors that might cause undesirable results. I pity the
Monitoring Centers that must deal with the end-user-do-it-yourselfers
but I'm glad They are doing it instead of me.

There is a way to program the panel without the Alpha keypad. You have to
be familiar with the panel's reponses though to do it. I couldn't "teach"
you how to, nor would I want to. The method is far more prone to error if
you're unfamiliar with the equipment. Leave the programming of the panel to
someone that is trained to do so. If you don't like the fact that they're
going to "restrict" you then your option is to have the system defaulted to
a local panel, purchase a remote dialler module and program that to call
your cell phone. Of course, you could always call up "NextAlarm" and have
them send you their dialler. From what I've read and seen in this group
though, I'd have some concerns on how they deal with their customers as
well...

You are correct. I started down that road, programming it blind,
realizing the prompts are still there as expected, but found the
manual's examples didn't have every scenario so I had too much trouble
predicting what to enter next. If I had done it before with an Alpha
keypad, then it would not have been a problem to figure out, but I
hadn't.

We, as a Monitoring Center, will not monitor for an End User for
many/all of these reasons. You never know how much the end-user knows
about everything involved in programming and monitoring an alarm
system. I would always recommend a Professional Installer who *has
experience* with the equipment being installed. ESPECIALLY if it is
being Monitored since that is usually where the confusion of codes and
zones and formats hits home. Most installers don't even realize how
complicated Monitoring can be for so many different systems and formats
and concepts (every dealer has a different concept of how his customers
signals should be handled).

I expect an End-User could call Honeywell and sweet-talk the password
out of them by pretending to be a Dealer. I don't expect Honeywell has
any way or would wish to spend the time to confirm who is a
"Professional" and who is not.

Still, don't give out the username and password if it is not yours to
give and this discussion would never have started.

 

[Crash Gordon]

In the olden days ADI would only give out pw to dealers with accounts and
they were unique for each company...not anymore.


|> The fact that the site *is* secured at all should tell you that they
don't
| > want "just anyone" to access the software. The fact that the softwares
EULA
| > also indicates it's intented to be used by qualified service personnel
| > should also tell you that they don't want "just anyone" to have access
to
| > it... You seem to miss these important points (as does the individual
that
| > provided you with the user id and password. If you were to call one of
your
| > local dealers and ask them to supply you with access the Honeywell
Dealer
| > site, what would they say??
|
| The community is a big place and the password has been posted often
| enough to be found somewhere on the Internet (never by ME, I wouldn't
| do that). That's just bad security. I'm not suggesting just anyone
| SHOULD have access, I'm just saying if they were SERIOUS about just
| professionals having it, then they would secure it better. I have no
| sympathy for anyone who doesn't secure a secured site properly. EULA's
| are useless to the end-user, they just don't care because no one will
| sue them because there is no standard to go by to determine who
| qualifies as a "Professional".
|
| Legally speaking, you are correct in every way. But, the Internet is a
| big world, Warnings and EULA's are impossible to enforce in this
| scenario. You Must secure your data/information/applications properly
| or the undesirables Will get it.
|
| > Boy are *you* wrong. Cars are "programmed" at the factory. Yes, the
Dealer
| > has to do very little in the way of "intervention", because they *do*
work
| > "out of the box". GM (Ford, Chrysler, etc.) won't give you access to
| > programming though, and there's no way for you to alter critical
functions.
| > On GM vehicles equipped with "Onstar", you also don't have the option of
| > using another provider. With the panel software you can pretty well do
| > anything you want (including "nulling" the zones, telco numbers and
account
| > codes).
|
| You are talking about a peice of hardware that is completely programmed
| and configured and ready to go and doesn't need any end-user or dealer
| tweaking, compared to a piece of hardware that has no useful smarts
| until it is configured properly. You can't alter the core programming
| on an Alarm Panel either, you can only muck with parameters. Mucking
| up the right parameters in a perfectly good car/alarm system can make
| critical functions fail. I know people who have the hardware and
| software to pull-over and plug in their laptop to their truck to change
| it's performance (because the configured it for better off-road
| performance but then it performed terribly once back on the freeway).
| Not a dealer or technician, just a guy who knows computers and cars and
| the right sources of the necessary equipment. Sure the stuff isn't
| available to the general public, but there is ALWAYS a way to get it,
| as we've just seen here, there is always some who Was in the business
| but now isn't and feels they have no obligation to anyone to keep the
| secrets. It is unfortunate, so we must be prepared for them by
| securing things by USER not by COMMUNITY. There is always a user in
| the community that will become corrupt. It's inevitable.
|
| > That won't help. If, for instance the end-user wants to use the
software he
| > purchases from some online retailer on his own system, he has to call
his
| > Dealer and get the access codes (and in some instances the CSID number
which
| > the software "writes" to the panel on the initial download). I know of
no
| > Dealer that would give that informtaion out to an end-user. Doing so
would
| > compromise every panel they have that uses that same software.
|
| True, the installer code could be necessary. The CSID can be reset to
| blank if you know the installer code.
|
| I'd just default my panel according to the documentation and start from
| scratch (I already know what my zones are and how they should respond).
|
|
| > If you were my customer and decided you wanted to program your own
equipment
| > using Dealer software, I'd say... "Sure, send me a cheque for the
balance
| > of your contract, then we'll default your panel and you can find
yourself
| > another monitoring centre and servicing Dealer. Good-bye!!"
|
| I would do the same thing I'm not saying I'd like to support an
| end-user doing this. Nor would I expect to be supported if I were the
| end-user. I also expect to be completely responsible for any
| programming errors that might cause undesirable results. I pity the
| Monitoring Centers that must deal with the end-user-do-it-yourselfers
| but I'm glad They are doing it instead of me.
|
| > There is a way to program the panel without the Alpha keypad. You have
to
| > be familiar with the panel's reponses though to do it. I couldn't
"teach"
| > you how to, nor would I want to. The method is far more prone to error
if
| > you're unfamiliar with the equipment. Leave the programming of the
panel to
| > someone that is trained to do so. If you don't like the fact that
they're
| > going to "restrict" you then your option is to have the system defaulted
to
| > a local panel, purchase a remote dialler module and program that to call
| > your cell phone. Of course, you could always call up "NextAlarm" and
have
| > them send you their dialler. From what I've read and seen in this group
| > though, I'd have some concerns on how they deal with their customers as
| > well...
|
| You are correct. I started down that road, programming it blind,
| realizing the prompts are still there as expected, but found the
| manual's examples didn't have every scenario so I had too much trouble
| predicting what to enter next. If I had done it before with an Alpha
| keypad, then it would not have been a problem to figure out, but I
| hadn't.
|
| We, as a Monitoring Center, will not monitor for an End User for
| many/all of these reasons. You never know how much the end-user knows
| about everything involved in programming and monitoring an alarm
| system. I would always recommend a Professional Installer who *has
| experience* with the equipment being installed. ESPECIALLY if it is
| being Monitored since that is usually where the confusion of codes and
| zones and formats hits home. Most installers don't even realize how
| complicated Monitoring can be for so many different systems and formats
| and concepts (every dealer has a different concept of how his customers
| signals should be handled).
|
| I expect an End-User could call Honeywell and sweet-talk the password
| out of them by pretending to be a Dealer. I don't expect Honeywell has
| any way or would wish to spend the time to confirm who is a
| "Professional" and who is not.
|
| Still, don't give out the username and password if it is not yours to
| give and this discussion would never have started.
|

 

[Frank Olson]

The community is a big place and the password has been posted often
enough to be found somewhere on the Internet (never by ME, I wouldn't
do that). That's just bad security. I'm not suggesting just anyone
SHOULD have access, I'm just saying if they were SERIOUS about just
professionals having it, then they would secure it better. I have no
sympathy for anyone who doesn't secure a secured site properly. EULA's
are useless to the end-user, they just don't care because no one will
sue them because there is no standard to go by to determine who
qualifies as a "Professional".

One company's idea of "securing" the dealer section of their website is
always open to criticism. I have no problem with the way Honewell/Ademco
have gone about doing it. It's Dealers like us that must accept the
responsibility of what *we* do with the information. Mr. Bass is *not* a
Dealer. He runs an online store that caters specifically to
Do-It-Yourselfers. I have no problem with "DIY". In fact I've helped many
find the products they need and a reputable online retailer that will
provide the support they require. Unfortunately Mr. Bass seems to think
that because the Honeywell site can be accessed by a "universal" log-in, and
others have already disseminated that information over the web, it's
perfectly alright for him to continue to do so... That's *not* what an
ethical Dealer would do...

Legally speaking, you are correct in every way. But, the Internet is a
big world, Warnings and EULA's are impossible to enforce in this
scenario. You Must secure your data/information/applications properly
or the undesirables Will get it.
Agreed.



You are talking about a peice of hardware that is completely programmed
and configured and ready to go and doesn't need any end-user or dealer
tweaking, compared to a piece of hardware that has no useful smarts
until it is configured properly. You can't alter the core programming
on an Alarm Panel either, you can only muck with parameters.

You obviously aren't familiar with DSC or you wouldn't say this.

Mucking
up the right parameters in a perfectly good car/alarm system can make
critical functions fail. I know people who have the hardware and
software to pull-over and plug in their laptop to their truck to change
it's performance (because the configured it for better off-road
performance but then it performed terribly once back on the freeway).
Not a dealer or technician, just a guy who knows computers and cars and
the right sources of the necessary equipment. Sure the stuff isn't
available to the general public, but there is ALWAYS a way to get it,
as we've just seen here, there is always some who Was in the business
but now isn't and feels they have no obligation to anyone to keep the
secrets. It is unfortunate, so we must be prepared for them by
securing things by USER not by COMMUNITY. There is always a user in
the community that will become corrupt. It's inevitable.

I'm not suggesting Mr. Bass has "become corrupt". All I'm saying is that
his ethics as an online retailer differ hugely from those of the
participants here. I'm also saying that if you're going to participate here
(in a forum of largley alarm professionals), you're expected to follow some
basic guidelines and principles. Mr. Bass has demonstrated on more than one
occasion that he considers such practices (and Professional ethics)
completely irrevelent. He's often attacked the trade as well in support of
his "DIY Mantra" in this forum. It's only one of several reasons why he's
not well liked or respected here.

True, the installer code could be necessary. The CSID can be reset to
blank if you know the installer code.

Once again, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge when it comes to Ademco
panels. If the CSID of the downloading computer doesn't match the CSID in
the panel, it doesn't matter if you have the installer code or not. The
panel will refuse to connect.

I'd just default my panel according to the documentation and start from
scratch (I already know what my zones are and how they should respond).

Feel free.

I would do the same thing I'm not saying I'd like to support an
end-user doing this. Nor would I expect to be supported if I were the
end-user. I also expect to be completely responsible for any
programming errors that might cause undesirable results. I pity the
Monitoring Centers that must deal with the end-user-do-it-yourselfers
but I'm glad They are doing it instead of me.

I don't believe any UL (or ULC) listed monitoring centre would accept an
end-user programming their own equipment. If you know of one, I'd be
interested in hearing about it...

I expect an End-User could call Honeywell and sweet-talk the password
out of them by pretending to be a Dealer. I don't expect Honeywell has
any way or would wish to spend the time to confirm who is a
"Professional" and who is not.

You're wrong about that too.

Still, don't give out the username and password if it is not yours to
give and this discussion would never have started.

I think you're barkin' up the wrong tree there bud... I'm not the one that
provided the info. No alarm professional worth his salt would do that
either.

 

[Mark Leuck]

When my Mustang was new I was going to put in a superchip thingie until I
found out I'd have to remove it if I needed warrantee work done on the car,
then reinstall it after Ford work was done or it would void the warrantee.

Exactly because Ford doesn't want you to mess with the computer, now its
obvious you CAN but you are on your own.

 

[Mark Leuck]

But they don't SECURE it as if they only want professionals to have it.
I could give one username and password out to ALL of my dealers and
tell them not to tell anyone else and to only access their own accounts
or the things they are competent enough to access, but they won't,
regardless of my "explicit statement", therefore proper security is
required if you only want "professional dealers" to use the resources
you make available to everyone. And I say "made available to everyone"
because it obviously IS, password or not.

Okay now thats stretching it, because you can give anyone your login that
means THEY are not secure? How stupid

Cars do not need to be initially programmed by the user (or Dealer for
that matter) to make them work. They work as-is, out-of-the-box.

And the DEALER software used by a DEALER is supposed to program your system
not you

Yes, the manual indicates that you must have an alpha keypad to program
the zones using the Menu Mode. But when reading I kept getting the
impression there was a way to program them without using Menu Mode
since I didn't have an alpha keypad.

Exactly what part of the installation manual gave you that impression?

I think you are under the impression that I HAVE an alpha keypad. I do
not. It does say "if you have an Alpha Keypad then you can use the
Menu Mode to program your Wireless zones". It doesn't say "if you
don't, then you need to get an alpha keypad or use the software", so I
kept searching for a way to program the wireless zones with a non-alph
keypad. It wasn't a matter of knowing how to do it, it was a matter of
knowing if I had the proper Tools to do it. Once I knew I didn't have
the proper tool, I got the tool and did the job, no problem. I just
want to make sure the Tool required to complete the job didn't require
purchasing additional hardware because the software wasn't available to
me, someone perfectly competent to use it and understand the
consequences of invalid programming, yet I wouldn't call myself a
"Professional Dealer" per se because I'm not a Technician or Installer.

And I'm glad you aren't, god knows how well you programmed the panel