Old trackball won't work on modern laptops

[Gene S. Berkowitz]

Tried that on both machines. No trabajo :-(

Do you have a Palm device? The Hotsync manager is notorious for
grabbing the com port and not letting go...

--Gene

 

[jasen]

Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the
whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This
old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector. But you know how
it is, when you get used to a tool no matter how ancient you don't want
to miss it. Just as I still miss that wonderful Fahrvergnuegen of my
first car...

Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly
also came with a RS232 serial port. Neither recognized that anything
"new" was connected nor could I find any setup in Windows (one is XP,
the other NT/2000). I am sure I can dig out the old mouse drivers but
they are from the days when Windows were still those glass thingies that
you use Windex on.

How do you get an old serial port mouse working on a "modern" laptop?

most likely is still com1:

open com1 at 1200 bps 8 data bits, no parity, one stop bit in hyperterm or
better and type move it round it should make symbols on the screen -
this proves it's working....

What you need is a serial mouse driver for that version of windows that
matches your trackball.

It might be easier to replace the chip and cable with ones that do PS/2
instead of serial. or switch to linux which supports a greater range of
mice.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Joerg]

Do you have a Palm device? The Hotsync manager is notorious for
grabbing the com port and not letting go...

Nope. Haven't gotten this modern yet ;-)

 

[Jack Peacock]

Since I have to do a largish schematic and won't be in the office the
whole time I wanted to connect my trusty old trackball to a laptop. This
old mouse still boasts a, gasp, 9-pin serial connector.
Tried it on two laptops, a Dell and a new Twinhead that surprisingly also
came with a RS232 serial port.

Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 pin
serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial port. This
was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, especially older
ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc supply, plenty of
current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in particular laptops, the serial
port may only be 5 or 6 volts and practically no current from the charge
pumps in the drivers. Your trackball may not have any power.
Jack Peacock

 

[jasen]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 00:18:41 GMT, Joerg

Isn't there a simple adapter to convert between serial and PS/2?

no, the protocol is different as are the voltages.

some mice were designed to operate from either a serial port or ps/2
and shipped with an adaptor that merely changed the shape of the plug.

it's possible that this trackball predates all that.

AND: Haven't you already wasted $50 of your time trying to be
cheap-ass, when a new track-ball can be had for $49 ?

I thought you would have learned that time is money by now ;-)

well yeah, for that pricew he can almost certainly get a better
trackball than the one he's got.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Joerg]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The
buttons are to the sides and much too close to the ball.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three
buttons with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping,
whatsoever. I can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight
pain or wear. With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb
joint crackles audibly, not good.

 

[jasen]

I do. But there comes a time when I need a little breather from staring
at a CAD screen or figuring out how to cram umpteen analog functions
into the space of about two quarters. Also, it's not about money, I like
this old mouse and I know it won't give cramps like most others.

BTW, Logitech says on their site that their driver (MouseWare) will not
support serial mice under 2k and XP. Great. But they did say that 2k and
XP have native drivers for that. Question is, who knows where?

Should be under add new hardware. generic serial mouse or similar.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Jim Thompson]

[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

That "Orbit" model bears a striking resemblance to a vintage Logitech
I had around 1990. Loved it.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

Can't find a website for that one directly but there seems to be a lot of
distributors.

Robert

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Not all RS-232 ports are created equal. If the trackball only has a 9 pin
serial, it likely is powered by drawing current from the serial port. This
was a common practice, but had problems. On a desktop, especially older
ones, the RS-232 was powered from the PC's +/-12Vdc supply, plenty of
current from the drivers. On newer boxes, in particular laptops, the serial
port may only be 5 or 6 volts and practically no current from the charge
pumps in the drivers. Your trackball may not have any power.

Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This
trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at
least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's
and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that
same trackball just fine.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This
trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at
least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's
and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that
same trackball just fine.

A "real" analog engineer would build an adapter box and supply
external power... perhaps even add circuitry to convert to USB ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

That "Orbit" model bears a striking resemblance to a vintage Logitech
I had around 1990. Loved it.

But it ain't the good old Logitech Trackman. If there was a Nobel prize
in ergonomics the Trackman designers deserve it.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This
trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at
least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's
and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that
same trackball just fine.

Perhaps the answer is here...

http://www.computing.net/beos/wwwboard/forum/285.html

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Perhaps the answer is here...

http://www.computing.net/beos/wwwboard/forum/285.html

Found that and other links via Google before posting here but it all
didn't help :-(

 

[Joerg]

A "real" analog engineer would build an adapter box and supply
external power... perhaps even add circuitry to convert to USB ;-)

If I had my druthers, well, heck, maybe I do that. Went to a Cypress
seminar the other day and one of the things they had us design was a I2C
to USB converter. Changing that over to RS232-USB would be a mere mouse
click on the screen with PSoC Express, then a wee compile run. And they
let us keep the proto board...

Just imagine, that would be a real nerd mouse: A Trackman, a largish
Cypress demo board with flashing LEDs all over the place, a wall wart,
lots of cables.

 

[David R Brooks]

Yes, this was already pointed out and I guess you may be right. This
trackball was designed in the days where RS232 was truly 12V, or at
least more than 9V. The puzzler is that a Wang laptop from the late 80's
and also a Compaq Contura laptop from the early 90's were running that
same trackball just fine.

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

 

[Eeyore]

Yes but the new laptop does not have a PS/2 port anymore :-(

You can get a USB to PS/2 adapter though.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-USB-to-PS2-...2QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41993QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

for example

Graham

 

[Jim Thompson]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks
[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

...Jim Thompson

 

[Nico Coesel]

It is.




Tried that. That model is long gone from there. I bet if I'd call they'd
suggest to try the Smithsonian museum ...



Well, on the risk of totally embarrassing myself here, how do I do that
in them thar newfangled Windozes?

Doesn't it recognise it when it is attached to the computer when it
starts? I recall having used a serial mouse less than 2 years ago with
an Win2000 machine. It was detected automatically during boot. Are you
sure the trackball is working and the serial ports are enabled?

 

[Robert]

Robert wrote:
[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm


Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Robert