Old trackball won't work on modern laptops

[Joerg]

Should be under add new hardware. generic serial mouse or similar.

I've looked. It wasn't :-(((

 

[Joerg]

Doesn't it recognise it when it is attached to the computer when it
starts? I recall having used a serial mouse less than 2 years ago with
an Win2000 machine. It was detected automatically during boot. Are you
sure the trackball is working and the serial ports are enabled?

No. Yes. Yes.

 

[Joerg]

Robert wrote:

[snip]

Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html

These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.

And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936

A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm

That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.

Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

 

[Joerg]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

I didn't measure. Just plugged it in and did a data dump from the old
logic analyzer. It simply worked ;-)

 

[Joerg]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

I think the main problem you have is that the mouse _may_ require 12V.

I'm not quite sure how to tell without frying it :-(

Maybe apply 6V and see what comes out when you roll the ball... nada
means it needs 12V ??

...Jim Thompson

 

[Jim Thompson]

Robert wrote:

[snip]


Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html


These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.



And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936


A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm

That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.

Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

My new Logitech wireless mouse has been going for six months without a
battery change.

It goes into sleep mode when no motion is detected.

...Jim Thompson

 

[Jim Thompson]

No. Yes. Yes.

Must be the volts ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Eeyore]

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Because it's cheap.

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:04:40 -0700, Jim Thompson



On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks


[snip]


Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson


Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

Got to find an "old mouse" schematic first.

I think the main problem you have is that the mouse _may_ require 12V.

I'm not quite sure how to tell without frying it :-(

Maybe apply 6V and see what comes out when you roll the ball... nada
means it needs 12V ??

Well, running a terminal on the old PC gives gibberish when rolling the
mouse. Doing that on the laptop, zilch.

 

[Joerg]

Robert wrote:

Robert wrote:


[snip]


Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html


These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.




And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936


A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

--
Regards, Joerg



Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm

That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.

Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html

Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

My new Logitech wireless mouse has been going for six months without a
battery change.

It goes into sleep mode when no motion is detected.

Does it need some kind of USB receiver that pokes out the PC? Maybe I
could buy one and tranfer the innards over into the old Trackman.

 

[Jim Thompson]

Robert wrote:




Robert wrote:


[snip]


Have you seen the other large Trackballs?

Kensington makes quite a few.

Here are two of the large ones:
http://us.kensington.com/html/1436.html


These are good example of what they do wrong these days IMHO: The buttons
are to the sides and much too close to the ball.




And then an even larger one with a 3 inch ball at:
http://www.askergoworks.com/shopexd.asp?id=936


A little better but still, you'd almost have to operate the left button
with the thumb.

The old Logitech is different from all of these. You can roll the ball
with the 2nd digit of your stretched out thumb and click the three buttons
with you stretched out fingers. No finger bending, cramping, whatsoever. I
can do that all day long and never feel any ever so slight pain or wear.
With "modern" mice it gets to the point where the thumb joint crackles
audibly, not good.

--
Regards, Joerg



Ergonomic Trackballs
http://www.specialneedscomputers.ca/em-trackballs.htm


That brought up an idea: If I can't get something like my old Trackman
anywhere or this one to work maybe I'll just buy a regular trackball and
add a foot switch. That'll do the trick.


Take a look at some alternative mouse technologies. They also have several
Trackballs with large Balls and buttons either on external switches or
spaced out further.

http://www.spd.org.sg/programmes/atc_alternativemouse.html


Ah, thanks! Logitech still makes a Trackman. Wish it wasn't wireless though.

My new Logitech wireless mouse has been going for six months without a
battery change.

It goes into sleep mode when no motion is detected.

Does it need some kind of USB receiver that pokes out the PC? Maybe I
could buy one and tranfer the innards over into the old Trackman.

Yep, has an antenna on about 3' of wire from the USB connector.

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:




Because it's cheap.





You still might be better off with a USB to PS/2 adaptor for a few dollars.

After all, they were designed to drive mice.

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

 

[Eeyore]

Except that this Trackman has a 9-pin RS232 plug. Will pop into Best Buy
next time I am in town.

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

Graham

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:




You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

Only if you find a PS/2 plug. Now I can easily find tractor glow plugs
here in town, and horse feed, and hydraulic fluid, and... IOW this ain't
the big city.

 

[Eeyore]

Only if you find a PS/2 plug. Now I can easily find tractor glow plugs
here in town, and horse feed, and hydraulic fluid, and... IOW this ain't
the big city.

Ebay. Everything you need is there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-2-Belkin...5QQihZ008QQcategoryZ45340QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cut the female end off and wire it to a DB-9.

And here's the USB adaptor
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-PS-2-to-USB...2QQihZ013QQcategoryZ31531QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Interface standard: USB 1.1 or USB 2.0
Converts two PS2 devices such as Keyboard & Mouse to one USB port
No external power needed
No software driver required
Brand new, never used
System requirement: Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP

What more do you want ?

Many more vendors to choose from here.
http://computers.search.ebay.com/ps...working_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQsacatZ58058

Graham

 

[Michael Schwingen]

You can easily make your own reverse PS/2-DB9 converter,

That works only if the trackball already supports PS/2. Many later Logitech
devices did - the PS/2 signals are on unused pins in the DB9 connector, and
the DB9-to-PS/2-adapter is a simple passive adapter. However, these adapters
do not work with "true" serial mice that *only* support RS232.

The same is true for USB mice that are shipped with a USB-to-PS/2-adapter:
the mouse supports both protocols, the adapter that is shipped with the
mouse is passive. Active adapters are a bit more difficult to find, but
they exist.

cu
Michael

 

[Eeyore]

That works only if the trackball already supports PS/2. Many later Logitech
devices did - the PS/2 signals are on unused pins in the DB9 connector, and
the DB9-to-PS/2-adapter is a simple passive adapter. However, these adapters
do not work with "true" serial mice that *only* support RS232.

I see. I often wondered how they worked.

The same is true for USB mice that are shipped with a USB-to-PS/2-adapter:
the mouse supports both protocols, the adapter that is shipped with the
mouse is passive. Active adapters are a bit more difficult to find, but
they exist.

Intruiging.

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

Joerg skrev:

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:53:14 -0800, David R Brooks

[snip]

Imho, that just about proves it. Those old laptops did have much meatier
power supplies. If you trawl the specs, you'll likely find the old ones
had RS232C, while the new one is RS232E. That's exactly the difference:
12V vs. about 6V, while the intended receiver load has reduced by an
order of magnitude. Since RS232 defines anything over 3V as a valid
signal, the interface-chip makers consider themselves free to provide
just enough power to stagger over the line, & they are in compliance.

Aha! Which says the solution is to provide 12V power to the
track-ball and add some 1488's and 1489's to buffer the levels ;-)

Or, as Joerg would do it... discretes ;-)

A micro would be a suck solution ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

 

[Jim Thompson]

Joerg skrev:

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

Joerg allowed as to how he'd already run serial data thru the port.
What were the levels?

Ok, guys, thanks for that hint about the voltage levels. Whipped out the
meter: It's 5.9V. Dang! Why on earth did they do that?

rs232 tranceiver with voltage doubler running of 3Volt, I guess

Jim, I am indeed itching to see if a discrete solution sans external 12V
supply could be done. Just for sports. Maybe one of those one transistor
switchers, a few turns around a ferrite bead, hmm....

old fashion rs232 transceiver back to back, running of 5volt taken form
USB or PS2 port?

-Lasse

On a laptop the available USB current is limited, but still might be
around 100mA.

Don't know what's legal from PS/2.

Why not just a battery pack? Joerg is making the problem too
complicated.

I'm not a "gamer", but what _is_ a game port? How does it behave?

...Jim Thompson