Design new 0 to 30V power supply.

PicMaster

Feb 18, 2009
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Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with micro-controllers to do that but adding such an interface shouldn't be hard for someone with the know how.
I can help out there, I have the code working to a degree, I send out a smooth stable volatge of 0-5V with a coarse and fine settings, This can be sorted out once we have a working power supply, we can just include it on the PCB this way people can a have a choice what they like to build.

A programmable current limit delay will probably me more tricky, maybe you could use a digital pot. but I don't know if you can get them which can be interfaced with an MCU?
Yes they can be interfaced with MCU but can only handle the same voltage has MCU which is 5V, I've also code some code some where to adjust them.

I've never has the need for 50V supply and not sure that many others would either, The PSU I'm running at the moment has never been above 13.8V really well once it went to 28.8V this was just to set up a battery charger timer card, If you think about it you could just build 2 and you can get 60V,

Has for the display we can either use a LCD/GLCD or 2 x 4 7 segment displays or even both the leds will read actual voltage/current the LCD could display the max voltage/current settings and Temp, These are just ideas and can be added later if needed

 

Hero999

Oct 28, 2007
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How much current can you draw without a total redesign of the topology? By upgrading all components in the main current path we can easily get >5A. This will be very useful. 10A would be ideal.
More and more MOSFETs can be added.

The limitation is that the increased gate capacitance will slow things down.

As drawn, the total gate capacitance is 3.74nF with R4 = 10k the time constant is 37.40_to_30V_3A.asc.txt

 

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Alex Tsekenis

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I agree with PICmaster that most projects stay below 12V or so, but the higher the output voltage range, the better. That said, I do realise that with a clean design like this, increasing the output voltage is quickly limited by factors such as op-amp supplies. This design must remain clean to be attractive and cost-effective therefore more than one PSUs can be connected in series. However, as they are regulated, connecting them in parallel will cause problems so we should try to squeeze as much current as possible, without having an array of MOSFETs or a brick of a transformer.

In my opinion 3A is on the low-side. 5A would be nice, 8A would be excellent, 10A and you have an outstanding PSU, capable of powering most projects (eg an audio ampilfier).

Hero, I was not able to find the MOSFETs on the IRF website, they are not real parts, are they?

I would prefer using a tad more expensive MOSFETs with lower RdsON than using more MOSFETs to keep it compact. Regarding gate current, a driver IC can be used (non standard?) or maybe an op-amp connected as a buffer. But then you need an extra device on the PCB as you already have 4 op-amps.

Here it is with the standard symbol, it doesn't look as good but it should work.
Nop. :(


I think 10% regulation is quite high for a power supply where a constant voltage source is important. Anyway, I calculated the no-load RMS output voltage as 13.3V for a 12V transformer rated at 3A with 10% regulation. Assuming sine wave, that is 18.86V peak, not quite sure where the 0.2V discrepancy is coming from, maybe rounding error? We both used a calculator for sqrt(2) so 0.2V is quite high.

One thing to bear in mind here, is that the regulation will change as the power factor from the rectifiers changes, you are switching between half and full bridge rectification.

(13.3VRMS-12VRMS)/3A=0.43 Ohms, so the secondary impedance calculation is right, you didn't over-estimate it.

What I realise is that I used the word impedance and not resistance. The secondary will also have inductance that, unlike it's resistance, will not waste energy as heat but send it back to C1. I am not sure as to what range of secondary inductance such a transformer will have. So what I did is assume that the secondary inductance exhibits an inductive reactance that is equal to the secondary resistance and therefore equal to Zsec / sqrt(2) = 0.43 / sqrt(2) = 0.3 Ohm

The inductive reactance of an inductor is |Z| = ω L [Ohms]. Plugging 50Hz and 0.3 Ohm into that and rearranging, I got an inductance of 9.67 E-4, i.e 967 μH.

So, Hero, try simulating the transformer with two 18.8V peak sine sources each with an inductor of 967uH in series with a resistor of 0.3 Ohm. Sorry I can't help with simulation my LTSpice has a will of its own.

I once again say that 10% is rather high. With such high(bad) regulation you can improve performance by increasing the output voltage of the trafo and 'sacrifice' it under load. But you will have housekeeping PSU problems when under light load. Otherwise, you can maybe increase the current rating thus decreasing secondary impedance and improving regulation?

You could sacrifice efficiency by using only the full bridge rectifier to drastically reduce the peak rectifier current. But I quite like that topology, and considering all of the above I think a higher current trafo is needed.

To clear your mind from phazors, I think we must concentrate on the analogue part which is what will define the performance of the whole PSU. Digipots, LCDs, DACs, ADCs are there and will allow a digital front end but will not affect things like closed-loop stability and output ripple, which are what the load will care about.

Hero, could you zip and email me your lib folder and its subfolders and files?
 

Hero999

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In my opinion 3A is on the low-side. 5A would be nice, 8A would be excellent, 10A and you have an outstanding PSU, capable of powering most projects (eg an audio ampilfier).
Each to their own I suppose. I thing 1.5A is good enough for most applications, for high powered stuff a regulated power supply becomes less important so I make my own unregulated supply using a Variac, a mains transformer, a rectifier and a filter capacitor.

Now as this supply isn't going to be for me, it's whatever everyone here needs.

Maybe I could design it for 5A and include some modifications to increase it to 10A?

Don't forget even 5A would require a 250VA transformer which will be quite large.

Hero, I was not able to find the MOSFETs on the IRF website, they are not real parts, are they?
It's just a MOSFET in a TO-220 package I could find on LTSpice. The datasheet can be foud on Google easilly enough. I don't know how easy it is to buy though.

I would prefer using a tad more expensive MOSFETs with lower RdsON than using more MOSFETs to keep it compact.
I would agree in general but I think common and easy to get hold of is more important here, besides power dissipation is the main problem here, not on resistance or current capacity.

Regarding gate current, a driver IC can be used (non standard?) or maybe an op-amp connected as a buffer. But then you need an extra device on the PCB as you already have 4 op-amps.
Perhaps I could add a transistor to the current limiting section but it'll probably need more phase compensation as it would increase the gain.


I think 10% regulation is quite high for a power supply where a constant voltage source is important.
I was talking about a typical 100VA transformer. I hope the power supply will have a much tighter regulation factor than 10%.


Anyway, I calculated the no-load RMS output voltage as 13.3V for a 12V transformer rated at 3A with 10% regulation. Assuming sine wave, that is 18.86V peak, not quite sure where the 0.2V discrepancy is coming from, maybe rounding error? We both used a calculator for sqrt(2) so 0.2V is quite high.
12V + 10% = 13.2V

If a 3A load is applied, the voltage will drop back to 12V, 13.2 - 12 = 1.2V

The impedance is 1.2/3 = 400mOhm.

One thing to bear in mind here, is that the regulation will change as the power factor from the rectifiers changes, you are switching between half and full bridge rectification.
No, it always uses full-wave rectification. When running from the centre tap the rectifier is configured as a biphase rectifier, it's still full-wave the transformer ensures that, when switched to the higher voltage, it's configured as a standard bridge4 rectifier. I wouldn't even consider drawing such a large load from a transformer using a half-wave rectifier because it will cause core saturation and meltdown.


What I realise is that I used the word impedance and not resistance. The secondary will also have inductance that, unlike it's resistance, will not waste energy as heat but send it back to C1. I am not sure as to what range of secondary inductance such a transformer will have. So what I did is assume that the secondary inductance exhibits an inductive reactance that is equal to the secondary resistance and therefore equal to Zsec / sqrt(2) = 0.43 / sqrt(2) = 0.3 Ohm

The inductive reactance of an inductor is |Z| = ω L [Ohms]. Plugging 50Hz and 0.3 Ohm into that and rearranging, I got an inductance of 9.67 E-4, i.e 967 μH.

So, Hero, try simulating the transformer with two 18.8V peak sine sources each with an inductor of 967uH in series with a resistor of 0.3 Ohm. Sorry I can't help with simulation my LTSpice has a will of its own.
That doesn't look right to me.

I would have thought the only inductance would be the leakage inductance which will be negligible.

The primary and secondary resistances will dominate. The resistance seen a the secondary will be equal to the Rs + Rp/TurnsRatio.

Even if part of the impedance is inductive it'll still drop the voltage by limiting the current pules, it's true that power won't be wasted but that doesn't make that much difference for the purposes of this exercise.

You could sacrifice efficiency by using only the full bridge rectifier to drastically reduce the peak rectifier current. But I quite like that topology, and considering all of the above I think a higher current trafo is needed.
I think tap switching is the only sane way to build a high powered linear power supply. I would like to use a transformer with as many taps as possible but it wouldn't be a standard part.

Hero, could you zip and email me your lib folder and its subfolders and files?
Done.

EDIT:
I couldn't email you so I've uploaded it to Silicon Tronics.
http://www.silicontronics.com/Stuff/lib.zip

Don't expect it to be there forever, it's just a temporary thing.

EDIT:
Here's a 35V 5A power supply.

The effect of the extra MOSFET capacitance has been reduced by bypassing R4 with 100nF which probably has slowed the over current limit response time.

The transformer model is 225VA which has a regulation factor of 8%.

It just about manages 35V and 5A simultaneously but I woundn't bet on it in real life; the ripple valley is very close to the output voltage.

I also wouldn't bet on my make shift high voltage zener (Q1, D8, R14 & R15) to have a votage drop below 44V, the maximum rating of the op-amps.

I think we need to accept that the output voltage and current won't be available simultaneously.

I'm tempted to go back down to 30V as the extra 5V isn't worth the trouble.

I can still keep the 5A requirement, it's just that beyond about 27V the voltage will drop and there'll be ripple, at high currents.
0_to_35V_5A_Sch1.PNG

0_to_35V_5A.asc.txt

 

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Alex Tsekenis

Nov 29, 2009
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5A it is then.

I have obviously looked on Google and IRF.The closest matches are the IRLR3915PBF from IRF, which  comes in a D-pak and the IRLU3915PBF which comes in an I-pak. Where did you get the TO-220 pack? Meh, I am sure we will find a candidate.

I agree, power dissipation is the limiting factor in this application.

37.4

 

Hero999

Oct 28, 2007
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5A it is then.

I have obviously looked on Google and IRF.The closest matches are the IRLR3915PBF from IRF, which  comes in a D-pak and the IRLU3915PBF which comes in an I-pak. Where did you get the TO-220 pack? Meh, I am sure we will find a candidate.
You're right, I thought it was TO-220 but the datasheet clearly states SMT.


 
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Alex Tsekenis

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I remembered this:

http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2001/november/digital-benchtop-power-supply-(1).54823.lynkx

http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2001/december/digital-bechtop-power-supply-(2).54867.lynkx

I have both articles, maybe we can pull some ideas or tips. Let me know if interested.

 

Alex Tsekenis

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Come on Hero, if you don't stop posting I will never go to bed and it is GMT+2 here  :eek: Besides, I am supposed to be away for Christmas. ::)

Now bypasses with 100nF, see the edit to my previous post.
Maybe it is worth adding a capacitor in series with the gate of M2, M3. This will waste some gate turn-on volatge (depending on capacitance ratios) but will decrease the gate capacitance that U1/U3 see. Maybe we can select logic-level FETs for M2/M3.

Your email address is hidden.
I have ticked 'hide from public' in my account, does public include registered members?

Please expand a bit more.
Yes so I run the simulation with ideal sources and ones with 0.4Ohm impedance and the difference is huge. That is what I meant by heavy dependance. With the percentages I meant what is the maximum tolerable peak-peak AC ripple as a percentage of the average DC output.

It seems to be fine as long as the input voltage isn't too low
If I had to choose between more coil (higher volatge trafo) and thicker coil (higher current trafo) I would choose thicker coil as it will keep efficiency high, maintain tight regulation and not fry the op-amps (assume a primary voltage spike) at light loads.
 

PicMaster

Feb 18, 2009
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I remembered this:

http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2001/november/digital-benchtop-power-supply-(1).54823.lynkx

http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2001/december/digital-bechtop-power-supply-(2).54867.lynkx

I have both articles, maybe we can pull some ideas or tips. Let me know if interested.
Has I understamd this was not a very good power supply, I've never built it but others copied it and they removed there design off there web sties saying it was unstable, but you may be to understand it better than me
I love this topic I'm learning so much from you guys it's mind blowing, Thanks

Looking at the Schematic I see you have used 3 mosfets for the output current but only one to switch the main current, can you please explain the logic behind it

Woulld we get away with only using 1 mosfet ?,

I have a 30/50amp discharger which only uses 4 mosfets and they don't even get warm. but then again I may be talking nonsence has it works the other way  ???

 
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Alex Tsekenis

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I've never built it but others copied it and they removed there design off there web sties saying it was unstable,
I have never built it either. Can yu point us top any reviews?

One MOSFET M1 to switch in the bridge rectifier if a high output volatge is required thus effectively adding both secondary coil voltages. When M1 is OFF, only one winding is offering power through D5 at any time. Although I haven't looked at exact numbers, since M1 is used as a switch, it will either excibit a high resistance or a very low resistance. In both cases, the dissipated power will be low.

But in the case of M2 M3, they are used as the 'pass-element' and have their resistance altered in a way that the output voltage is regulated. These FETs can dissipate significant power because of that (linear regulator action, like an LM317) hence two have been used to share the dissipated power.

There are factors that determine how warm the FETs will get, such as cooling or if they are the actual discharge element. In your charger it is possible that a huge resistor is used to dissipate the heat.
 

PicMaster

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Looking and studying the drawing more I can now see that M1 acts as a switch silly me. I understand now you are correct in saying that I've got resistors that used to dissipate the heat.

have never built it either. Can yu point us top any reviews?
I will see if I can find any more info out, I did build the circuit on a test board so that I could control it with another pic but I found that under load some parts blew up can't quite remember which parts did hsa I give up with it and never looked any further into it, I may have had it wired up it wired up wrong

I'm pritty sure that this was one of the web pages that did it but they do a newer design now, may be worth a look
http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/June2005/article379.shtml

I've attached a zip file containing the other version of the elektor PSU, This is what is said about it
Hi @ll

I can mail to thoses who whant the : General purpose PIC16F876A controlled power supply, New version V3, April 25, 04 of VE2EMM from www.qsl.net

the author removed his project due to some noise ??? around the pic or at the psu output.
you guys will understand that more than me, 
PIC_Power_Supply.zip

 

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Alex Tsekenis

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Thanks PICMaster. I can't believe they used an R2R ladder for a DAC when they had an MCU with PWM... ::)

 

PicMaster

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I know I would of used 10bit PWM myself,

Just has a thought instead of using a mosfet to switch the higher volatge what about a relay instead
Like the drawing below, Once the output reaches 12V the relay kicks in the higher voltage

View attachment 40795

 

Alex Tsekenis

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If I haven't missed anything, your schematic will have the same outcome. You are also using full-wave all the time.

Your schematic is using one diode less, but is using a changeover relay which might have speed implications; during the switchover there will be no power delivered to the tank capacitor and you will see that at the output. I also think that the sudden increase in voltage (as opposed to the smoother increase as the MOSFET's gate charges will cause a current spike which will lower the transofrmer's voltage. Maybe these factors will become crtitical if your output is set for around 12V.

To do that with FETs you will need at least one more FET. The FET method will consume less power and maybe be a bit cheaper. Overall, I think this is a case of doing the same thing in a similar way using different components.

 

Hero999

Oct 28, 2007
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Come on Hero, if you don't stop posting I will never go to bed and it is GMT+2 here  :eek: Besides, I am supposed to be away for Christmas. ::)
Yes, I noticed your post but had the self control to go to bed. ;D

Maybe it is worth adding a capacitor in series with the gate of M2, M3. This will waste some gate turn-on volatge (depending on capacitance ratios) but will decrease the gate capacitance that U1/U3 see.
I don't see how that will help.

As you said the turn-on voltage wll be higher which I think counteracts any benefit of having a lower capacitance, suppose the turn on voltage is doubled and the capacitance halved, we still have to wait just as long for the MOSGET to turn on.


Maybe we can select logic-level FETs for M2/M3.
Already done.

I have ticked 'hide from public' in my account, does public include registered members?
Yes it does hide your email from registered members. I think it's a good thing because it stops people asking questions via email; that's what the forum is for.

Yes so I run the simulation with ideal sources and ones with 0.4Ohm impedance and the difference is huge. That is what I meant by heavy dependance. With the percentages I meant what is the maximum tolerable peak-peak AC ripple as a percentage of the average DC output.
That will be the same with any power supply with rectifier and capacitor. There's nothing that can be done, short of adding active power factor correction which in that case I might as well make it an SMPS.

If I had to choose between more coil (higher volatge trafo) and thicker coil (higher current trafo) I would choose thicker coil as it will keep efficiency high, maintain tight regulation and not fry the op-amps (assume a primary voltage spike) at light loads.
That's why I've decided to go with 0 to 30V.

The output current will be limited above about 26V down to 2.4A at 30V, perhaps this can be done using software? Set the voltage above 26V and the maximu current limit is automatically reduced?


I've simulated a load transient 4.95A on and off  and a short circuit transient.

The turn on occurs at 1ms, there's some under and overshoot by about 36mV and lasts for microseconds.

The turn off transient is of a similar magnitude but there some ringing and it lasts longer.

The short circuit is odd. It immediately shoots up to about 475A, drops briefly to 350A, shoots up to 400A, decays to about 15mA for about 380View attachment 40796

View attachment 40797

View attachment 40798

 

PicMaster

Feb 18, 2009
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It was only a thought has they used that in a Velleman 0-30V 0-10A psu which I did have one and never seen the voltage drop has it will be has quick has the mosfet, But if the mosfet is the better way to go then that's the way to go

how long do you reckon before we can build one for real and start playing

 

Alex Tsekenis

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how long do you reckon before we can build one for real and start playing
I was afraid this would come up any moment now.

perhaps this can be done using software? Set the voltage above 26V and the maximu current limit is automatically reduced?
Sure, but I would like to have the digital front-end as a retrofit. We could give different SW versions for different trafos.

The short circuit is odd.
Try adding some real-life ESR to C7.

I noticed you have eliminated the pot. divider for the current threshold reference. Are we going to adjust the current threshold with the dif amp now? I know you run out of voltage. Maybe you could decrease the gain of the dif amp?

We can use those IGBTs from the other topic to simulate a short-circuit when we have a prototype.

Could you post the latest asc. file?
 

PicMaster

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I was afraid this would come up any moment now.
Sorry on reding it back I should of not asked that question really I did not mean to sound to be rushing.

 

Hero999

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how long do you reckon before we can build one for real and start playing
You can build it now if you like but don't expect it to be any good.

I'm expecting there to be problems with the first build.

I remember designing something at work. I wanted to build a prototype but the boss wouldn't let me. It didn't work properly but I did tell him. He couldn't blame me because he reviewed all the drawings and signed them off.

Alex Tsekenis said:
Sure, but I would like to have the digital front-end as a retrofit.
Perhaps there should be a mark on the voltage dial indicating the reduced maximum current at higher voltage settings?

Try adding some real-life ESR to C7.
Done 50mΩ

I noticed you have eliminated the pot. divider for the current threshold reference. Are we going to adjust the current threshold with the dif amp now?
It's just temporary.

I've added another reference to adjust the voltage, for simulation purposes which will be replaced with a pot. for the final schematic.

I know you run out of voltage. Maybe you could decrease the gain of the dif amp?
I might increase the gain of the current error amplifier slightly.

I like the idea of having a 1V/1A output because it might make it easier to add a meter. If it turns out to have been a bad idea it could be changed later.

We can use those IGBTs from the other topic to simulate a short-circuit when we have a prototype.
If you like.

I normally use MOSFETs but I can see you're itching to find a use for those IGBTs.  ;D

Could you post the latest asc. file?
See attached.

I've found an op-amp, the LT1014, it's reasonably priced, low offset and has a high CMRR but it's a little slow: the transient response is worse now.

I haven't decided on the MOSFET yet, the problem is LTSpice doesn't come with any models for TO-220 MOSFETs. I think I'll just use the IRL540 and won't worry about the model.0_to_30V_5A.asc.txt

 

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Alex Tsekenis

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I am just looking at the asc file.

Maybe you should separate Vref for the current limit and use a third source for R12/R13. In fact, how about using a constant reference for U4 as that doesnt need to be variable. How about a circuit around D8?

Current limit attack time? Are we strategically ignoring this at the moment?

Also, I noticed you used a time dependant current source as the load. I think a resistive load would be better as it is completely passive. The way I have done this before was to use a time dependant voltage source to connect low value resistors to the output through a MOSFET. I am sure there is a better way to do this.

Finally, I see you added ESR (50mOhm) to C1, not C7 as I was asking in a previous post. I was thinking that that 400+A short circuit current might have been due to the 0 ESR for C7.


EDIT: The output voltage now seems to be 6*Vref. Any ideas what happened? Also, what is the output impedance of U1 in this configuration?

 
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